Ethnographic Arms & Armour
 

Go Back   Ethnographic Arms & Armour > Discussion Forums > European Armoury
FAQ Calendar Today's Posts Search

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 28th June 2014, 08:35 PM   #1
Matchlock
(deceased)
 
Matchlock's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking
Posts: 4,310
Default

.
Matchlock is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2nd July 2014, 08:00 PM   #2
fernando
(deceased)
 
fernando's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 9,694
Exclamation MISSING PICTURES IN POST #45

The following pictures should have been uploaded in post #45 but, for some reason, Piotr couldn't manage to do it.
Please consider them por your comments, as he kindly requests.

.
Attached Images
  
fernando is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2nd July 2014, 09:46 PM   #3
Matchlock
(deceased)
 
Matchlock's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking
Posts: 4,310
Wink

Hi Nando and Piotr,


These images undoubtedly depict a load or patron/paper cartridge belt (German: Ladungs- oder Papierpatronen-Gurt) comprising a patron/cartridge bag, with a wooden core
drilled for ten paper cartridges covered with ooze or chamois leather (German: lohgares oder Sämischleder), and curved to fit the waist.
This is an extremely rare instance of ammunition related accouterment for Austrian and German musketeers and calivermen, ca. mid to late 17th century/post-Thirty Years War (1618-48), which has not been noted by historic weaponry before today.
Actually, the author signing this post is the first researcher to ever define, and herewith publish, this piece of accouterments.

The images in the previous posts, obviously copyrighted by Piotr - thanks a lot Piotr: you sure did a GREAT JOB! - , and posted by Nando - thanks as well Nando, my friend! - , were taken in the exhibition rooms of the Heeresgeschichtliches Museum (Army museum) Wien/Vienna, Austria.

Attached to this post and the following, find photos of the very same items, taken by the author in the show rooms of the same Vienna museum, and by special appointment, on 12 July 1990.
Besides a leather hat for a musketeer, the attachments also include
some singular and original ... century Austrian test fabric samples of raw linnen which the soldiers standardized garments were made of - all of them perfectly documented by enlarged copies of excerpts from the original archived documents on these fabric samples.

The next in line attachments introduce
another very rare sample of a late 17th c. German or Austrian load or cartridge waist belt, the wooden core drilled for 20! paper cartridges, and the outside of the bag's leather blind-tooled with a lozenge pattern (German: blindgeprägtes Leder); German private collection:
- 2 attachments


and some fine ca. 1680-1700 Dutch/North Western Germany type of patron/cartridge bags;
author's photographs of 6 June 1987 taken in the exhibition rooms at the Emden
Rüstkammer (The Emden historic armory) in Ostfriesland:
- 2 attachments

Those patron/cartridge bags were most probably used along with one of the latest types of matchlock or wheellock muskets, including combined versions of these igniting systems.

For the latter type of 17th century 'high tech' infantry long guns/muskets please cf.
a fine ca. 1665-70 Suhl made Austrian combined wheellock and matchlock musket
in The Michael Trömner Collection
, coming straight from the former reserve collection/depot of the Fortress Hohensalzburg, mainly via the dealer Werner Mewes, Ulm/Germany; also involved were Georg Britsch sen. and Franz Christof, and together with many other amost identical muskets all representing the very same model manfuctured in Suhl/Thuringia and delivered to German, Austrina and Swiss arsenals:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...k+Suhl+Austria

As I stated in post #49 above, literally thousands of weapons of all sorts were illegaly 'deaccessioned' from the reserve collection/depot located on the Fortress Hohensalzburg/Austria in 1987-9.


Those patron/cartridge bags in discussion may have been used together with early type combined flintlock and matchlock infantry muskets of ca. 1670-80 as well, though.

Attached are author's photos
of caracteristic samples preserved in the Graz Landeszeughaus (Styrian arsenal); these photographs were taken on 9 July 1987 and 3 September 1990.
- 1 image attached at the bottom of this post, illustrating the Graz museum arrangement of wheellock pistols, scabbards and patrons/cartridge boxes.


For all other attachments please see my following posts.



Alas, this group of 1680's Suhl manufactured muskets is incorrectly termed, and defined as belonging to the almost mythic MONTECUCCOLI system -by the present Graz museum staff.
I have sufficient proof to state that the Graz curators succeeding in office to
Dr. Peter Krenn, all have neglected the obvious fact that all the combined flintlock and matchlock Suhl muskets in both the arsenal collections of the Graz Landeszeughaus and the Vienna Heeresgeschichtliches Museum are actually far from deserving to be termed as 'MONTECUCCOLI' muskets
...


As the author has stated various times, The Michael Trömner Collection is the only collection known to hold a true sample of the legendary M 1666 MONTECUCCOLI type, coming straight from the arsenal of The Counts von Stauffenberg, and preserved in optimum original condition overall.
I won it phone bidding at SOTHEBY's London sale of 10 July 2002, lot 242 - cf. my thread:

1666: The MONTECUCCOLI musket - a MYTH Verified!
And Common Type Combined Flintlock and Matchlock Suhl Made Muskets, 1680's:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...119#post172119

The only other type of military type contemporary with these patron/cartridge bags are
earliest Germanic/Suhl manufactured types of flintlock infantry muskets of ca. 1700-20.
- Attached are images I took of such guns preserved in the
Graz Landeszeughaus (Styrian arsenal).


Best,
Michael/Michl
Michael Trömner

Attached Images
            

Last edited by Matchlock; 3rd July 2014 at 03:32 PM.
Matchlock is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd July 2014, 08:05 PM   #4
Matchlock
(deceased)
 
Matchlock's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking
Posts: 4,310
Default

..
Matchlock is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd July 2014, 08:06 PM   #5
Matchlock
(deceased)
 
Matchlock's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking
Posts: 4,310
Default

...
Matchlock is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd July 2014, 08:54 PM   #6
Matchlock
(deceased)
 
Matchlock's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking
Posts: 4,310
Default

,
Matchlock is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16th August 2014, 08:23 PM   #7
Piotr M. Zalewski
Member
 
Piotr  M. Zalewski's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 6
Default

Theory and a short history of the POLISH CARTRIDGE BOX ( ŁADOWNICA POLSKA)

A Polish cartridge box (ładownica Polska) is a type a box made of wood
and metal, covered by material or leather with an arm belt and a
leather or a material lid with an added metal plate. It is similar to
cartridge boxes used by XVIII/XIX cavalry.
As that I know, it appeared at the end of XVI century or at the
beginning of XVII century during Polish Ottoman war at the Polish
territories, that constitute present-day Ukraine. Turkey and their
allied Crimean Tartars constantly attacked Polish borders. There were
also similar incursions from Moscow and Moldova. Polish army of the
period consisted of a small, albeit a well trained infantry and
artillery as well as more numerous cavalry. Due to a mobile nature, the
cavalry constituted a primary and most efficient arm at the vast and
empty territories of Ukraine.
During XVI century, conquest of the neighbouring territories was a
primary object of the West-European wars (seizure of castles/towns
etc). In case of the Kingdom of Poland, protection of the vast
territories against enemy invasion was most important. There was plenty
of land for everyone, and there was no need for territorial expansion.
The Kingdom needed peace. Therefore physical elimination of the enemy
forces constituted a main task of the Polish army and its commanders .
It is not well known that there were a lot of firearms during the
period. Polish units protecting the border, by standards of the day,
had a considerable firepower. A standard tactic, was to move quickly,
attack with sabres and lances, defend on foot with fire arms. Since the
wagons would slow-down the movement, the army moved with personal
equipment and ammunition. Therefore Polish Cartridge boxes carried 10
to 20 and more cartridges each.
A paper cartridge was well known in XVI century. For example during
battle at Byczyna (24.01.1588) between Polish and Austrian forces,
commanded respectively by Jan Zamoyskiand Maxymilian III Habsburg (a
pretender to Polish Crown), Polish army capture a lot of ammunition
cartridges. There were black-powder manufactures spread all over
Kingdom (sulphur i saltpetre was on place). There were also numerous paper
manufactures in southern Poland (paper from Poland was exported to
Hungary, Moscow). In effect there was a significant supply of a
“second class” paper. So called “gray paper” or “packing paper”. There
were also a good supply of a higher quality paper from printing
offices (during Reformation and Contr Reformation different Churches
printed a lot of books and other publications). Leftovers from the
printing process were used to produce cartridges.
There is a confirmed information about a Polish cartridge box in
diaries from the period of a Polish occupation of Kremlin in Moscow
from 1612. Next there is a cartridge box listed in a document produced
after death of a craftsman in 1618. There are also municipal tax
regulations dated 1626 in Lublin which provides information on prices
and description of different types of Polish cartridge boxes –Ładownica.
There is also a numerous iconography presenting Polish cartridge boxes
from the period: at the tomb of Hetman (i.e. general) Żółkiewski in Żółkiew (present day Ukraine) dated: after 1621- before 1635,


Another in Tarłowo church (ca 1645-50).
In both bas-reliefs there is an earlier and a simple type of Ładownica – with short cover and without metal plate on front.

Next, there are objects from Beresteczko (28.06-10.07.1651)
battlefield, where Polish army defeated Cossack rebels. During the
second half of XVII century Ładownica, which was originally a simple,
rough and ordinary utility object, became and expensive, part of an
army equipment, which confirmed material status of the owner. The
process started during the rule of the King Jan III Sobieski and Viena
Victory in 1683. The fact that there is a few luxury objects dated end
of XVII century (e.g. in Swedisch collection of the goods stolen
during the Swedish invasion / so called “Potop Szwedzki” or a Swedish
deluge) there are no objects such as Ładownica confirms low value of
such objects during the period. In comparison Ładownice (cartidge
boxes) from end of XVII and beginning of XVIII c. were decorated in the
same style as sabres of the Polish nobles (a mix of western barocco
style and the eastern splendour).

In western Europe this type of cartridge box appeared after 30-Years
War, when Polish light-horse cavalry (so called Lisowczycy) served in
the Habsburg army, in German states, Hungary and even France. I
believe that they exported the invention.
Till know knowledge about origin of such part of webbing as Cartridge
box was very limited. There is no sufficient Polish literature on the
subject. There are only 4 articles including mine. Prof. Zdzisław
Żygulski jun. published the most important book about arms and armour
in Poland in 1982. The book says that a paper cartridge was invented
in Spain at the end of XVI century and that King of Sweden, Gustavus
Adolphus introduced cartridge to the army service. I repeated this
information in my first text on the origin of cartridge boxes of
National Cavalry in 1990. At present, I believe that this information
was misleading
.
Attached Images
     
Piotr  M. Zalewski is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 02:21 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2025, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Posts are regarded as being copyrighted by their authors and the act of posting material is deemed to be a granting of an irrevocable nonexclusive license for display here.