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#1 |
(deceased)
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking
Posts: 4,310
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#2 |
(deceased)
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 9,694
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The following pictures should have been uploaded in post #45 but, for some reason, Piotr couldn't manage to do it.
Please consider them por your comments, as he kindly requests. . |
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#3 |
(deceased)
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking
Posts: 4,310
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Hi Nando and Piotr,
These images undoubtedly depict a load or patron/paper cartridge belt (German: Ladungs- oder Papierpatronen-Gurt) comprising a patron/cartridge bag, with a wooden core drilled for ten paper cartridges covered with ooze or chamois leather (German: lohgares oder Sämischleder), and curved to fit the waist. This is an extremely rare instance of ammunition related accouterment for Austrian and German musketeers and calivermen, ca. mid to late 17th century/post-Thirty Years War (1618-48), which has not been noted by historic weaponry before today. Actually, the author signing this post is the first researcher to ever define, and herewith publish, this piece of accouterments. The images in the previous posts, obviously copyrighted by Piotr ![]() ![]() ![]() Attached to this post and the following, find photos of the very same items, taken by the author in the show rooms of the same Vienna museum, and by special appointment, on 12 July 1990. Besides a leather hat for a musketeer, the attachments also include some singular and original ... century Austrian test fabric samples of raw linnen which the soldiers standardized garments were made of - all of them perfectly documented by enlarged copies of excerpts from the original archived documents on these fabric samples. The next in line attachments introduce another very rare sample of a late 17th c. German or Austrian load or cartridge waist belt, the wooden core drilled for 20! paper cartridges, and the outside of the bag's leather blind-tooled with a lozenge pattern (German: blindgeprägtes Leder); German private collection: - 2 attachments and some fine ca. 1680-1700 Dutch/North Western Germany type of patron/cartridge bags; author's photographs of 6 June 1987 taken in the exhibition rooms at the Emden Rüstkammer (The Emden historic armory) in Ostfriesland: - 2 attachments Those patron/cartridge bags were most probably used along with one of the latest types of matchlock or wheellock muskets, including combined versions of these igniting systems. For the latter type of 17th century 'high tech' infantry long guns/muskets please cf. a fine ca. 1665-70 Suhl made Austrian combined wheellock and matchlock musket in The Michael Trömner Collection, coming straight from the former reserve collection/depot of the Fortress Hohensalzburg, mainly via the dealer Werner Mewes, Ulm/Germany; also involved were Georg Britsch sen. and Franz Christof, and together with many other amost identical muskets all representing the very same model manfuctured in Suhl/Thuringia and delivered to German, Austrina and Swiss arsenals: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...k+Suhl+Austria As I stated in post #49 above, literally thousands of weapons of all sorts were illegaly 'deaccessioned' from the reserve collection/depot located on the Fortress Hohensalzburg/Austria in 1987-9. Those patron/cartridge bags in discussion may have been used together with early type combined flintlock and matchlock infantry muskets of ca. 1670-80 as well, though. Attached are author's photos of caracteristic samples preserved in the Graz Landeszeughaus (Styrian arsenal); these photographs were taken on 9 July 1987 and 3 September 1990. - 1 image attached at the bottom of this post, illustrating the Graz museum arrangement of wheellock pistols, scabbards and patrons/cartridge boxes. For all other attachments please see my following posts. Alas, this group of 1680's Suhl manufactured muskets is incorrectly termed, and defined as belonging to the almost mythic MONTECUCCOLI system -by the present Graz museum staff. I have sufficient proof to state that the Graz curators succeeding in office to Dr. Peter Krenn, all have neglected the obvious fact that all the combined flintlock and matchlock Suhl muskets in both the arsenal collections of the Graz Landeszeughaus and the Vienna Heeresgeschichtliches Museum are actually far from deserving to be termed as 'MONTECUCCOLI' muskets ... As the author has stated various times, The Michael Trömner Collection is the only collection known to hold a true sample of the legendary M 1666 MONTECUCCOLI type, coming straight from the arsenal of The Counts von Stauffenberg, and preserved in optimum original condition overall. I won it phone bidding at SOTHEBY's London sale of 10 July 2002, lot 242 - cf. my thread: 1666: The MONTECUCCOLI musket - a MYTH Verified! And Common Type Combined Flintlock and Matchlock Suhl Made Muskets, 1680's: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...119#post172119 The only other type of military type contemporary with these patron/cartridge bags are earliest Germanic/Suhl manufactured types of flintlock infantry muskets of ca. 1700-20. - Attached are images I took of such guns preserved in the Graz Landeszeughaus (Styrian arsenal). Best, Michael/Michl Michael Trömner Last edited by Matchlock; 3rd July 2014 at 03:32 PM. |
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#4 |
(deceased)
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking
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#5 |
(deceased)
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking
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#6 |
(deceased)
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking
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#7 |
Member
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 6
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Theory and a short history of the POLISH CARTRIDGE BOX ( ŁADOWNICA POLSKA)
A Polish cartridge box (ładownica Polska) is a type a box made of wood and metal, covered by material or leather with an arm belt and a leather or a material lid with an added metal plate. It is similar to cartridge boxes used by XVIII/XIX cavalry. As that I know, it appeared at the end of XVI century or at the beginning of XVII century during Polish Ottoman war at the Polish territories, that constitute present-day Ukraine. Turkey and their allied Crimean Tartars constantly attacked Polish borders. There were also similar incursions from Moscow and Moldova. Polish army of the period consisted of a small, albeit a well trained infantry and artillery as well as more numerous cavalry. Due to a mobile nature, the cavalry constituted a primary and most efficient arm at the vast and empty territories of Ukraine. During XVI century, conquest of the neighbouring territories was a primary object of the West-European wars (seizure of castles/towns etc). In case of the Kingdom of Poland, protection of the vast territories against enemy invasion was most important. There was plenty of land for everyone, and there was no need for territorial expansion. The Kingdom needed peace. Therefore physical elimination of the enemy forces constituted a main task of the Polish army and its commanders . It is not well known that there were a lot of firearms during the period. Polish units protecting the border, by standards of the day, had a considerable firepower. A standard tactic, was to move quickly, attack with sabres and lances, defend on foot with fire arms. Since the wagons would slow-down the movement, the army moved with personal equipment and ammunition. Therefore Polish Cartridge boxes carried 10 to 20 and more cartridges each. A paper cartridge was well known in XVI century. For example during battle at Byczyna (24.01.1588) between Polish and Austrian forces, commanded respectively by Jan Zamoyskiand Maxymilian III Habsburg (a pretender to Polish Crown), Polish army capture a lot of ammunition cartridges. There were black-powder manufactures spread all over Kingdom (sulphur i saltpetre was on place). There were also numerous paper manufactures in southern Poland (paper from Poland was exported to Hungary, Moscow). In effect there was a significant supply of a “second class” paper. So called “gray paper” or “packing paper”. There were also a good supply of a higher quality paper from printing offices (during Reformation and Contr Reformation different Churches printed a lot of books and other publications). Leftovers from the printing process were used to produce cartridges. There is a confirmed information about a Polish cartridge box in diaries from the period of a Polish occupation of Kremlin in Moscow from 1612. Next there is a cartridge box listed in a document produced after death of a craftsman in 1618. There are also municipal tax regulations dated 1626 in Lublin which provides information on prices and description of different types of Polish cartridge boxes –Ładownica. There is also a numerous iconography presenting Polish cartridge boxes from the period: at the tomb of Hetman (i.e. general) Żółkiewski in Żółkiew (present day Ukraine) dated: after 1621- before 1635, Another in Tarłowo church (ca 1645-50). In both bas-reliefs there is an earlier and a simple type of Ładownica – with short cover and without metal plate on front. Next, there are objects from Beresteczko (28.06-10.07.1651) battlefield, where Polish army defeated Cossack rebels. During the second half of XVII century Ładownica, which was originally a simple, rough and ordinary utility object, became and expensive, part of an army equipment, which confirmed material status of the owner. The process started during the rule of the King Jan III Sobieski and Viena Victory in 1683. The fact that there is a few luxury objects dated end of XVII century (e.g. in Swedisch collection of the goods stolen during the Swedish invasion / so called “Potop Szwedzki” or a Swedish deluge) there are no objects such as Ładownica confirms low value of such objects during the period. In comparison Ładownice (cartidge boxes) from end of XVII and beginning of XVIII c. were decorated in the same style as sabres of the Polish nobles (a mix of western barocco style and the eastern splendour). In western Europe this type of cartridge box appeared after 30-Years War, when Polish light-horse cavalry (so called Lisowczycy) served in the Habsburg army, in German states, Hungary and even France. I believe that they exported the invention. Till know knowledge about origin of such part of webbing as Cartridge box was very limited. There is no sufficient Polish literature on the subject. There are only 4 articles including mine. Prof. Zdzisław Żygulski jun. published the most important book about arms and armour in Poland in 1982. The book says that a paper cartridge was invented in Spain at the end of XVI century and that King of Sweden, Gustavus Adolphus introduced cartridge to the army service. I repeated this information in my first text on the origin of cartridge boxes of National Cavalry in 1990. At present, I believe that this information was misleading . |
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