Incendiary "bestiary" or reality

Jim McDougall · 22nd June 2014, 07:03 PM

Marcus, I do understand your attention to this extremely unfortunate topic and while your interest is well intended, I would respectfully suggest that it is better avoided in a broadly attended venue such as this and better held to the selectively limited group who might research such things.

There are many aspects of war and obviously the well known use of the weapons we discuss, however focus on the exploitation of animals who are in these senses innocent to designs on dealing death and mayhem is entirely repugnant to myself and others. It is quite different to train animals for warfare such as war horses, and others as bomb search or attack or guard dogs but naturally as with most things, there are categoric differences.

Please understand, I do not state this opinion in any official capacity or personal criticism as your posts are always intriguing and well informed, and certainly your intent here was well intended. I simply regret the subject matter and though I encourage discussion on the broadest possible scope of subjects, and note this is not one of them. I hope you and those reading will accept my comments constructively and in kind.

Andi · 22nd June 2014, 08:49 PM

We should be able to discuss such historic topics freely in neutral and scientific way, without being blamed to celebrate cruelty to both animals and humans either in former or in present times. Everyone in our forum will be 100percently aware that the practice purposed by early fireworks authors will violates our present ethical standards and may also not comply to religious and ethical standards of the Middle Ages. So do I. I condemn the use of animals (and humans) for such (suicidal and assassin) practice and so far no written evidence from any historic chronicle are known to me that animals have really been used this way - but I want to be able to discuss it.
We can be proud that our ethical standards drastically developed since the 500 years when this images were published - and It's good this way!

Jim McDougall · 22nd June 2014, 09:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andi

We should be able to discuss such historic topics freely in neutral and scientific way, without being blamed to celebrate cruelty to both animals and humans either in former or in present times. Everyone in our forum will be 100percently aware that the practice purposed by early fireworks authors will violates our present ethical standards and may also not comply to religious and ethical standards of the Middle Ages. So do I. I condemn the use of animals (and humans) for such (suicidal and assassin) practice and so far no written evidence from any historic chronicle are known to me that animals have really been used this way - but I want to be able to discuss it.
We can be proud that our ethical standards drastically developed since the 500 years when this images were published - and It's good this way!

Well understood and agreed Andi, we should indeed, however it is the nature of certain topics that the discussion often becomes distorted with emoted or distorted editorializing leading to unfortunate circumstances between participants. That being said, my comments were simply placed as my opinion concerning the subject matter as I had noted, and of course my option is to read it or not. This does seem in accord with what you have said. It is interesting, just in my perception distasteful.

Matchlock · 23rd June 2014, 03:05 AM

I think that everything said here is as legitimate as it is sad and historically true.

It is absolutely important not to shut one's eyes to facts, and be aware of the horrible things that mankind has been inflicting on innocent animals who, by nature, have the very same rights on this earth that we have, who love to call ourselves 'humans'. Especially cats were superstitiously considered as the personalized fiend, and persecuted and most cruelly tortured all over the so-called 'cultivated' and 'enlightened' Western World, up until only 200 years ago!

Up to the late 18th century, at court huntings, 'noble' ladies! especially enjoyed torturing foxes for sheer amusement!, tossing them up before they finally got relieved by death:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fox_tossing

Regarded from this point of view, Marcus did his best to both enlighten and shame us about our real selves ...

Let us be honest and aware of the true nature of mankind.
The truth should always be told and shown, just as all perpetrators should be named and shamed!
Let's start and build a better world!

Best,
Michael

Attachments:
illustrations of the noble 'merrymaking' of fox tossing

- from Johann Friedrich Flemming: Der vollkommene teutsche Jäger (the perfect German huntsman), 1749

- at the Dresden Schloss, in 1678, from Gabriel Tzschimmer: Die durchlauchtigste Zusammenkunfft (the meeting of the Serene Highnesses), Nürnberg, 1680

Robert · 23rd June 2014, 07:03 AM

Marcus, I have been watching this post with interest and while I thoroughly believe in the saying "Those who do not know history's mistakes are doomed to repeat them." It is my opinion (because of the disturbing nature of this subject) that it would best serve the forum if any further discussions not directly related to the original topic are done either by PM or email. I say this knowing it will not be popular with some forum members but personally believe that the only point that has been made so far is man's inhumanity to his fellow creatures in the past and in some cases the present. Therefore all future postings will be in direct reference to the original subject matter only, anything else will be viewed as being OT and promptly deleted.

Robert

23rd June 2014, 03:05 AM	#4
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	I think that everything said here is as legitimate as it is sad and historically true. It is absolutely important not to shut one's eyes to facts, and be aware of the horrible things that mankind has been inflicting on innocent animals who, by nature, have the very same rights on this earth that we have, who love to call ourselves 'humans'. Especially cats were superstitiously considered as the personalized fiend, and persecuted and most cruelly tortured all over the so-called 'cultivated' and 'enlightened' Western World, up until only 200 years ago! Up to the late 18th century, at court huntings, 'noble' ladies! especially enjoyed torturing foxes for sheer amusement!, tossing them up before they finally got relieved by death: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fox_tossing Regarded from this point of view, Marcus did his best to both enlighten and shame us about our real selves ... Let us be honest and aware of the true nature of mankind. The truth should always be told and shown, just as all perpetrators should be named and shamed! Let's start and build a better world! Best, Michael Attachments: illustrations of the noble 'merrymaking' of fox tossing - from Johann Friedrich Flemming: Der vollkommene teutsche Jäger (the perfect German huntsman), 1749 - at the Dresden Schloss, in 1678, from Gabriel Tzschimmer: Die durchlauchtigste Zusammenkunfft (the meeting of the Serene Highnesses), Nürnberg, 1680 Attached Images Last edited by Matchlock; 23rd June 2014 at 03:46 AM.

22nd June 2014, 07:03 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	Marcus, I do understand your attention to this extremely unfortunate topic and while your interest is well intended, I would respectfully suggest that it is better avoided in a broadly attended venue such as this and better held to the selectively limited group who might research such things. There are many aspects of war and obviously the well known use of the weapons we discuss, however focus on the exploitation of animals who are in these senses innocent to designs on dealing death and mayhem is entirely repugnant to myself and others. It is quite different to train animals for warfare such as war horses, and others as bomb search or attack or guard dogs but naturally as with most things, there are categoric differences. Please understand, I do not state this opinion in any official capacity or personal criticism as your posts are always intriguing and well informed, and certainly your intent here was well intended. I simply regret the subject matter and though I encourage discussion on the broadest possible scope of subjects, and note this is not one of them. I hope you and those reading will accept my comments constructively and in kind.

22nd June 2014, 08:49 PM	#2
Andi Member Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: Halstenbek, Germany Posts: 203	We should be able to discuss such historic topics freely in neutral and scientific way, without being blamed to celebrate cruelty to both animals and humans either in former or in present times. Everyone in our forum will be 100percently aware that the practice purposed by early fireworks authors will violates our present ethical standards and may also not comply to religious and ethical standards of the Middle Ages. So do I. I condemn the use of animals (and humans) for such (suicidal and assassin) practice and so far no written evidence from any historic chronicle are known to me that animals have really been used this way - but I want to be able to discuss it. We can be proud that our ethical standards drastically developed since the 500 years when this images were published - and It's good this way!

23rd June 2014, 07:03 AM	#5
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Marcus, I have been watching this post with interest and while I thoroughly believe in the saying "Those who do not know history's mistakes are doomed to repeat them." It is my opinion (because of the disturbing nature of this subject) that it would best serve the forum if any further discussions not directly related to the original topic are done either by PM or email. I say this knowing it will not be popular with some forum members but personally believe that the only point that has been made so far is man's inhumanity to his fellow creatures in the past and in some cases the present. Therefore all future postings will be in direct reference to the original subject matter only, anything else will be viewed as being OT and promptly deleted. Robert