Kattara restoration

Gavin Nugent · 22nd June 2014, 10:30 AM

I do continue as the absoluteness of your statements and belief is incorrect and you wish to press this notion elsewhere other than the links you refer to.

My sword offer was replied with a flat NO with not the slightest bit of interest it looking at further options as your belief doesn't allow expansion.

The sword shown here, its origin has been mentioned, my name is not Eric???

I have no problem with what I state about what I have held, surely that is obvious with the volumes of text in these pages....

you ask me to stay on subject but do not yourself, how is one to accept this request?

I know not what is missed with my statements?

It is simple; I am not taking anything away from your dance swords, dance with them, let them bend, this is your dance sword you passionately defend, present them any way you like.

There is another of the same type that does not bend... if these swords of the past were hung on hips, left by beds or used to travel to far away lands as was anyone's want. It does not need classification as your dance sword or to be reputed as souk rubbish...souk rubbish is very obvious and differences in types is obvious in the hand...it is not anyone else's fault....consider changing your absolute views on the subject

Gavin

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 22nd June 2014, 04:25 PM

There is another of the same type that does not bend...
Gavin[/QUOTE]
************************************************** *********

Salaams SwordsAntiqueWeapons, It would be great if there was one (why would I deny it?)... however;

No there isn't. Not counting the Omani Shamshiir which I put down to being a VIP Sword/dignatories only, there are 3 sword types designated Omani viz;

1. Omani Battle Sword.. or Sayf Yamaani. For Fighting.
2. Omani Curved Sword .. or Kattara. The slavers sword.
3. Omani Dancing Sword .. or Sayf (Saif). Pageants and Salutation only.

The designation Omani Dancing Sword carries the description Conical Hilt, broad, flexible blade often fullered with 1, 2 or three grooves. A flat spatulate tip, rounded. Sharpened on both edges. The flexible blade easily bending through 90 degrees so that the sword can be vibrated whilst dancing. This action is carried out with the flick of the wrist and is vital to the swords duel function in the traditional march past and pageants or "Funun".

A sword that looks like the dancing sword but is of Ethiopian/German origins and is stiff is considered as a Tourist sword sold in the souk to tourists since 1970...and occasionally fetching high prices apparently. Omani people don't buy them since as they dont bend they cannot be danced with thus are useless for the march past and Funun.

Omani Dancing Swords are not fighting weapons. They never were. Think of them as Dynastic swords invented just after 1744 for Celebration and Pageantry...Salutation and Parades...for what is in fact the current Dynasty..

No matter how warlike you may consider them they were never used in war.

There is no other derivative except the style that has been played with by the souk workshops for the Tourist market. Viz;

German>Ethiopia>Yemen >Oman > Souk> World. Here is a picture of one such blade (stiff)...from the workshop that has been converting thousands of such blades since 1970...brought in from Sanaa... previously of Ethiopian ownership...a German Blade...they are not all tripple fullered ...this one happens to be SEE #241 on http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ttara+comments

Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Gavin Nugent · 23rd June 2014, 12:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

There is another of the same type that does not bend...
Gavin
************************************************** *********

Salaams SwordsAntiqueWeapons, It would be great if there was one (why would I deny it?)... however;

No there isn't. Not counting the Omani Shamshiir which I put down to being a VIP Sword/dignatories only, there are 3 sword types designated Omani viz;

1. Omani Battle Sword.. or Sayf Yamaani. For Fighting.
2. Omani Curved Sword .. or Kattara. The slavers sword.
3. Omani Dancing Sword .. or Sayf (Saif). Pageants and Salutation only.

The designation Omani Dancing Sword carries the description Conical Hilt, broad, flexible blade often fullered with 1, 2 or three grooves. A flat spatulate tip, rounded. Sharpened on both edges. The flexible blade easily bending through 90 degrees so that the sword can be vibrated whilst dancing. This action is carried out with the flick of the wrist and is vital to the swords duel function in the traditional march past and pageants or "Funun".

A sword that looks like the dancing sword but is of Ethiopian/German origins and is stiff is considered as a Tourist sword sold in the souk to tourists since 1970...and occasionally fetching high prices apparently. Omani people don't buy them since as they dont bend they cannot be danced with thus are useless for the march past and Funun.

Omani Dancing Swords are not fighting weapons. They never were. Think of them as Dynastic swords invented just after 1744 for Celebration and Pageantry...Salutation and Parades...for what is in fact the current Dynasty..

No matter how warlike you may consider them they were never used in war.

There is no other derivative except the style that has been played with by the souk workshops for the Tourist market. Viz;

German>Ethiopia>Yemen >Oman > Souk> World. Here is a picture of one such blade (stiff)...from the workshop that has been converting thousands of such blades since 1970...brought in from Sanaa... previously of Ethiopian ownership...a German Blade...they are not all tripple fullered ...this one happens to be SEE #241 on http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ttara+comments

Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Yes my mind boggles at the denial and that your eyes are so closed. You defend a theory you consider 100% absolute with never a chance of a single individual in the past straying from this conviction of yours...

The souk items you speak of are not even a shadow of the old swords in the style we differ opinion on, the notion is void in when comparing these and old examples.

By your reckoning, in 1744 onwards, a new hilted was just designed and everyone queued for the next 100 years to get one and not a single person re-hilted an old battle sword or an heirloom blade in this "newer" style hilt.

Through divine intervention, they all kept their old battle swords at home and rushed off to the nearest market place to buy a new type of sword they can dance with because they all had pockets full of gold and a desire to "keep up with the Jones’s", this and sword makers were pumping these new swords out by the tens of thousands to appease the masses during this time....sounds like an economy stimulus package.

By this reckoning, simply by these people then keeping these old straight battle swords with quillons, there should be so many available to collectors to sight, yet they remain elusive I would say 1 old for every 50 new would be generous....but hang on Hilda, they now, during this period of 1744 onwards, suddenly chose to use a curved sword with the dancing hilt for fighting, never a straight sword with this new hilt, gentlemen of the period just thought how cool it would be to forget all they learned with the old straight sword, a comfort and knowledge ingrained in to their very being to suddenly adopt a curved sword...but hang on again, NO, you'll tell me they all continued to use their old straight battle swords right up until the early 20th century based on one photo.

We continue to venture through the lands of Dragons and Makara.

Gavin

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 23rd June 2014, 08:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SwordsAntiqueWeapons

Yes my mind boggles at the denial and that your eyes are so closed. You defend a theory you consider 100% absolute with never a chance of a single individual in the past straying from this conviction of yours...

The souk items you speak of are not even a shadow of the old swords in the style we differ opinion on, the notion is void in when comparing these and old examples.

By your reckoning, in 1744 onwards, a new hilted was just designed and everyone queued for the next 100 years to get one and not a single person re-hilted an old battle sword or an heirloom blade in this "newer" style hilt.

Through divine intervention, they all kept their old battle swords at home and rushed off to the nearest market place to buy a new type of sword they can dance with because they all had pockets full of gold and a desire to "keep up with the Jones’s", this and sword makers were pumping these new swords out by the tens of thousands to appease the masses during this time....sounds like an economy stimulus package.

By this reckoning, simply by these people then keeping these old straight battle swords with quillons, there should be so many available to collectors to sight, yet they remain elusive I would say 1 old for every 50 new would be generous....but hang on Hilda, they now, during this period of 1744 onwards, suddenly chose to use a curved sword with the dancing hilt for fighting, never a straight sword with this new hilt, gentlemen of the period just thought how cool it would be to forget all they learned with the old straight sword, a comfort and knowledge ingrained in to their very being to suddenly adopt a curved sword...but hang on again, NO, you'll tell me they all continued to use their old straight battle swords right up until the early 20th century based on one photo.

We continue to venture through the lands of Dragons and Makara.

Gavin

You are trying to prove ...with your square boomerang theory...that there is another type of Omani sword...a peculiar as yet not recognised stiff battle blade built around the dancing sword framework ...when in fact there has never been such a weapon. I have shown you where and how these swords of Ethiopian/ German decent have been done up for the Tourist market but you just don't believe me. I find it hilarious... however, I have given you the facts ... Go ahead and try to prove your new fighting-dancing sword theory.

You have quite a weird imagination and view of how the dancing sword/ battle sword and kattara evolved in the process...It is likely that the honorific dynastic dancing item commenced at palace guard and militia levels and diffused into the relatively small city/town populations over the decades following the Dynastic start date of 1744... not overnight ! It took on the hilt of the slaver weapon..the kattara ...and was sharp and round tipped reflecting the old battle sword...The dancing sword was relatively easy and quick to make..Flexibility was its key component. Two main centres Nizwa and Muscat as well as lesser village smiths Sanau, Sohar, Salalah would have been in on the production as well as the wandering gypsy sword makers.There was no relationship the old Battle sword blades being cross hilted to produce a sort of dancer-battle blade...or a separate specific straight battle bladed sword on a conical hilt.. None. It is not in this countrys history.

The only way this has crept into some peoples imaginations is because of the recent surge in Tourist rehilts as earlier described and since 1970.

The Battle Sword was the fighting blade. The Dancing Sword was for Pageants and Salutation..being important and encapsulated in the Funun..

If there was this ghost blade that you imagine and have concocted because you have made a mistake in being sucked in by a Tourist item...do you not think had this been a fact that I would have spotted it? Do you not think there would be examples in the Richardson and Dorr volumes....or in any of the Omani Museums...? It's funny but perhaps they seem to have overlooked it.

You have dreamed this one up. There is no such thing. Like the square boomerang? (I assume that your reference to Dragons and Makara is the out of context throw away addition added because you don't believe Kastane have hilts in that related form?...) Oh dear...

Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Gavin Nugent · 23rd June 2014, 03:38 PM

The square Boomerang fits well in a square hole, however you insist on trying to push it into a round hole in all aspects of time and space.

I have stated my claim to your absolute belief very clearly above and provided readers with more than enough scope to see how flawed such an absolute claim is.

I will leave you to your faith on the subject, it has been entertaining.

Gavin

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 23rd June 2014, 03:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SwordsAntiqueWeapons

The square Boomerang fits well in a square hole, however you insist on trying to push it into a round hole in all aspects of time and space.

I have stated my claim to your absolute belief very clearly above and provided readers with more than enough scope to see how flawed such an absolute claim is.

I will leave you to your faith on the subject, it has been entertaining.

Gavin

Salaams SwordsAntiqueWeapons,

The ink is free...Here is the hot anvil of discussion... prove your point. The Museums, not to mention more than 2 million Omani people will be delighted with your astonishing new discovery...A completely new sword type.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Gavin Nugent · 24th June 2014, 12:08 AM

The anvil is cold and I am flogging a dead Makara with you...did you notice.
In it modern day context of the mid 20th century onwards, I have no doubt it has become the norm and socially acceptable about what you claim a sword type should be.
I have proved my point; a horse can only be led to water. Your theory about what a blade type should be in the past is full of holes. To consider no one ever placed an old heirloom blade in to a hilt of this style is light years beyond the realm of possibilities and to claim such an absolute strangle hold on the past and about the doings of every individual in it is but folly. Unless of course you have physic links and can speak with the dead, but even speaking with the dead one by one, you would lack enough of life’s precious breath to fully complete this task of speaking with these spirits...

If the discussions on the subject ever take a logical line I will be more than happy to entertain further discussion and point out further specifics about sword types I’ve bought sold and handled.

All the best,

Gavin.

22nd June 2014, 10:30 AM	#1
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	I do continue as the absoluteness of your statements and belief is incorrect and you wish to press this notion elsewhere other than the links you refer to. My sword offer was replied with a flat NO with not the slightest bit of interest it looking at further options as your belief doesn't allow expansion. The sword shown here, its origin has been mentioned, my name is not Eric??? I have no problem with what I state about what I have held, surely that is obvious with the volumes of text in these pages.... you ask me to stay on subject but do not yourself, how is one to accept this request? I know not what is missed with my statements? It is simple; I am not taking anything away from your dance swords, dance with them, let them bend, this is your dance sword you passionately defend, present them any way you like. There is another of the same type that does not bend... if these swords of the past were hung on hips, left by beds or used to travel to far away lands as was anyone's want. It does not need classification as your dance sword or to be reputed as souk rubbish...souk rubbish is very obvious and differences in types is obvious in the hand...it is not anyone else's fault....consider changing your absolute views on the subject Gavin

22nd June 2014, 04:25 PM	#2
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Who's Eric? There is another of the same type that does not bend... Gavin[/QUOTE] ************************************************ ***** Salaams SwordsAntiqueWeapons, It would be great if there was one (why would I deny it?)... however; No there isn't. Not counting the Omani Shamshiir which I put down to being a VIP Sword/dignatories only, there are 3 sword types designated Omani viz; 1. Omani Battle Sword.. or Sayf Yamaani. For Fighting. 2. Omani Curved Sword .. or Kattara. The slavers sword. 3. Omani Dancing Sword .. or Sayf (Saif). Pageants and Salutation only. The designation Omani Dancing Sword carries the description Conical Hilt, broad, flexible blade often fullered with 1, 2 or three grooves. A flat spatulate tip, rounded. Sharpened on both edges. The flexible blade easily bending through 90 degrees so that the sword can be vibrated whilst dancing. This action is carried out with the flick of the wrist and is vital to the swords duel function in the traditional march past and pageants or "Funun". A sword that looks like the dancing sword but is of Ethiopian/German origins and is stiff is considered as a Tourist sword sold in the souk to tourists since 1970...and occasionally fetching high prices apparently. Omani people don't buy them since as they dont bend they cannot be danced with thus are useless for the march past and Funun. Omani Dancing Swords are not fighting weapons. They never were. Think of them as Dynastic swords invented just after 1744 for Celebration and Pageantry...Salutation and Parades...for what is in fact the current Dynasty.. No matter how warlike you may consider them they were never used in war. There is no other derivative except the style that has been played with by the souk workshops for the Tourist market. Viz; German>Ethiopia>Yemen >Oman > Souk> World.** Here is a picture of one such blade (stiff)...from the workshop that has been converting thousands of such blades since 1970...brought in from Sanaa... previously of Ethiopian ownership...a German Blade...they are not all tripple fullered ...this one happens to be SEE #241 on http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ttara+comments Ibrahiim al Balooshi. Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 22nd June 2014 at 04:51 PM.

23rd June 2014, 03:38 PM	#5
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	The square Boomerang fits well in a square hole, however you insist on trying to push it into a round hole in all aspects of time and space. I have stated my claim to your absolute belief very clearly above and provided readers with more than enough scope to see how flawed such an absolute claim is. I will leave you to your faith on the subject, it has been entertaining. Gavin

24th June 2014, 12:08 AM	#7
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	The anvil is cold and I am flogging a dead Makara with you...did you notice. In it modern day context of the mid 20th century onwards, I have no doubt it has become the norm and socially acceptable about what you claim a sword type should be. I have proved my point; a horse can only be led to water. Your theory about what a blade type should be in the past is full of holes. To consider no one ever placed an old heirloom blade in to a hilt of this style is light years beyond the realm of possibilities and to claim such an absolute strangle hold on the past and about the doings of every individual in it is but folly. Unless of course you have physic links and can speak with the dead, but even speaking with the dead one by one, you would lack enough of life’s precious breath to fully complete this task of speaking with these spirits... If the discussions on the subject ever take a logical line I will be more than happy to entertain further discussion and point out further specifics about sword types I’ve bought sold and handled. All the best, Gavin.