Stating FACTS - Cultural and Forum 'Politics' - or POLICIES!

Matchlock · 19th June 2014, 10:48 AM

Marcus,
My friend,

THANKS!

Best,
Michl

Matchlock · 19th June 2014, 12:42 PM

Our member Batijka posted my statement on ar.15.com

Posted: Today 6:47:15 AM

http://www.ar15.com/forums/manageRep...1636208&page=1

This Gentleman is Michael Trömner, a historian and collector of early firearms. He posted this on vikingsword.com and I am reposting it here for everyone to see. This is beyond sad, it's criminal:

Since the German Reunification in 1990, state and museum funds for all cultural belongings in common, and especially for the purchase of antique 'military'/arsenal firearms - no matter how old and important they may be - , have been crudely cut back. Military firearms are officially condemned as possibly raising aggressive feelings with museum visitors viewing them.

The situation has aggravated, especially after those rampages acted by youngsters started. At Columbine high-school in Colorado, two senior students murdered 12 of their fellow students and one teacher in 1999. Moreover, they injured 24 students, with three other people being injured while attempting to escape. Eventually, the killers committed suicide.
The German cultural authorities feel that those antique historical firearms may incite young people to go mad and act in killing frenzy (German: Amoklauf). In 2009, at Winnenden high-school, Southern Germany, and in a murder-suicide act, a 17-year old student shot 16 people imcluding himself.

Actually, it was Swiss! cultural politicians who started that anti-historical firearms campaign in the 1990's. Consequently, large and important Swiss firearms collections have been banned from public exhibition and packed into the storage rooms. This happened to the large famous weapons collection at the Historisches Museum Berne, to the ample collections of the Swiss Landesmuseum Zurich and the Altes Zeughaus Solothurn, as well as to a other Swiss state museums.

And it was the same sad story with German museums as well. By the early 1990's, almost all firearms have been withdrawn from the exhibition rooms of such important museums as the Bayerisches Nationalmuseum Munich, the Deutsches Historisches Museum/Altes Zeughaus Berlin or the wonderful arsenal collection at the Stadtmuseum/Zeughaus Munich - to name just a few of them. Most antique firearms, 300 to 600 years old, have even been withdrawn from the huge exhibition halls of the Bayrisches Armeemuseum Ingolstadt, only 30 km next to my home.
They will never be on viewing again for at least the next 30 years!

On the other hand, crossbows, edged weapons like swords and, of course, all kinds of armor, are still officially regarded as noble and gallant (German: edel), knightly or even kingly, and are not primarily defined as means of war, by both the official political and cultural Swiss and German authorities and the museums. Consequently, they are allowed to stay on exhibition, while antique firearms, even - or maybe especially - when they are the earliest ever made, like all guns in my collection, which holds not one single item that was manufactured after ca. 1720! Even the most antique firearms are officially condemned - politically, morally and culturally, and are regarded as endangering peaceful life and politics.

The story is as sad as it is true. Most museum curators will look down in a highly suspicious way on any scholar asking to be granted access and do research on firearms and their accouterments. Many of those people, especially the so-called generation 1968, and of course female curators, even react personally and blatantly disgusted. Various times, I have been asked how I can manage to combine my academic interest in these items with my conscience, and have been affronted as being a firearms freak who is gaga about guns. Of course I have fired original 400 year-old muskets; is just part of my comprehensive research, and believe me: firing a matchlock musket that is 1.67 m long overall and weighs 1o kgs is an incomparable experience which leaves a lasting impression.

Everybody who really knows me and both my personal and political serious creed realizes that I actually love and defend peace, as well as the rights of all political persecutees and refugees, that I respect all living beings, and especially humans, no matter what color their skin may be or what nation belong to. I have always fought for the good fight, and animal rights. I love and defend all animals, and especially cats, from the bottom of my heart!
Not only am I a Christian and believe in God, I also graduated, among others, in Theology from Regensburg University in 1982.

But I also love historical arsenal arms, just for their cultural, historical, technical, art historical and social importance; and they clearly document the fact that there are both sides to every medal, as well as every human being is, and will always be, giftet with both good and evil - the reverse of the medal.

*************************

Vadim, thank you so much for supporting me, and believing in humanity and the heart - instead of blunt 'politics'!

Best,
Michael Trömner

Pukka Bundook · 19th June 2014, 03:17 PM

Dear all,

I can understand Michael's thread being closed, as it mentions Columbine, etc. But I Do believe that the important element of the thread should be open for discussion.
To me, this part is the concern we must all share regarding the removal of very important early forearms from public viewing.
What concerns me about this is;

Who decides what is good for us, the public........on a national and international level?
To decide what is good and not good for us, puts these individuals in a position of authority over us.
This authority was not granted by the public at large, but another sign of the Nanny State, and voices should be raised against it.

Andrew,
This may come across as Political, but one cannot bury ones head in the sand, and expect to keep freedom of choice.
Unfortunately, there are always those willing to take control of our lives for us, If we Let them.
To me, the taking of such liberties are both sinister and subversive.
If such people get away with it, we can be sure they will endeavour to further impose their wills on us in other directions as well.
The ostrich approach to the problem is not going to work in these cases.

Michael,
Regarding your posts;
I would join in the discussions more, as they are of interest to me, but my poor old dial-up cannot handle the volume of pictures you post, so until we go High-speed, I can't contribute much in a meaningful manner.

All best wishes,
Richard.

dana_w · 19th June 2014, 03:42 PM

I am also glad to see this topic back up for discussion. Matchlock makes some great points. Ignorance, apathy, and political correctness are a big problem for people who love history and historical weapons, especially firearms.

This article was published in the UK’s Telegraph in 2000. It details the problems Keith Neal’s daughter had in finding a place to exhibit her late father's remarkable collection of historic firearms.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...treasures.html

cornelistromp · 19th June 2014, 04:11 PM

The right to form an opinion and to be able to express yourself, are prerequisites for a democratic society, any democratic society so also this forum.
The freedom to have opinions, freely Exercising the mind and free speech can bring injustice to light and gives everyone the freedom to be critical and to interfere in all kind of discussions.
An independent, diverse and free press is an essential prerequisite.
In my country the Netherlands, it was agreed that the government should not control Censorship! everything can be said as long as there is no harm done to a person or group of persons.

I have absolutely nothing (in common) with Johnny Cash and Kris Kristofferson but love antique weapons in every appearance.

This forum vikingsword.com should, as long as it's about antique arms, allow every debate.

best,
Jasper

Jim McDougall · 19th June 2014, 05:43 PM

I am as keen as anyone here on the pursuit of knowledge and the study on antique weaponry and of course very much resent the progressive attitude toward them in academic, institutional and governmental circumstances. However while agreeing fully with openness in discussion concerning them here, I think it is important to avoid activism oriented commentary and impassioned rallying in these discussions.

While we all must be aware of matters which involve policies and legal changes which directly effect the course of collecting and shipment of arms etc. as well as policy issues with many institutions , it is entirely counter productive to promote or incite reaction or response. It is an objective matter collectively here....what we do in response is a private matter.

It is well understood that everyone here is fully capable of what approach and which channels are appropriate in order to effectively respond to these circumstances, and do not require provocative commentary or rallying.

While we are all aware as well in the unfortunate issues with which Michael has been faced, and all agree in that he is one of our forums extremely valuable assets and I am sure we all would gladly do whatever we can to help.

I would suggest and ask everyone here to please keep our attention to these matters on focus and constructive, and avoid impassioned exemplars such as tragic events and the like.

Lee · 19th June 2014, 11:41 PM

I should like to suggest a political action community such as avaaz.org with its community petition platform as a more appropriate venue for some of what has been going on here of late.

'Historic Firearms and mankind...' is under review as it is likely permissible in the new Ethnographic Miscellanea forum, but we need to develop a consensus among the moderator team.

For now, caution is suggested to members about where they take this 'protest thread.'

batjka · 20th June 2014, 12:51 AM

I am glad the thread got reopened. Sometimes you just can't separate life and politics, one affects the other. However, to condemn a whole class of historic objects is beyond ridiculous.

After all, what is a gun? Just a pipe with a touch hole. A 2nd grader can make one in about 5 minutes, as long as a plumbing supply is nearby. Same with powder - charcoal can be easily made. Saltpeter, too - some manure and urine mixed together, a bit of time and voila! Do these politicians think they can really stop this? The genie is out of the bottle.

But Michael's collection is not mere killing instruments - they are feats of human civilization. They don't just belong to him - they belong to humanity. And trying to outlaw or banish them will only lead to barbarity as people will stop admiring and learning from history. And then they will turn to making killing machines out of plumbing pipe.

19th June 2014, 12:42 PM	#2
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	A Policy Of Humanity - Instead of 'Politics'! Our member Batijka posted my statement on ar.15.com Posted: Today 6:47:15 AM http://www.ar15.com/forums/manageRep...1636208&page=1 This Gentleman is Michael Trömner, a historian and collector of early firearms. He posted this on vikingsword.com and I am reposting it here for everyone to see. This is beyond sad, it's criminal: Since the German Reunification in 1990, state and museum funds for all cultural belongings in common, and especially for the purchase of antique 'military'/arsenal firearms - no matter how old and important they may be - , have been crudely cut back. Military firearms are officially condemned as possibly raising aggressive feelings with museum visitors viewing them. The situation has aggravated, especially after those rampages acted by youngsters started. At Columbine high-school in Colorado, two senior students murdered 12 of their fellow students and one teacher in 1999. Moreover, they injured 24 students, with three other people being injured while attempting to escape. Eventually, the killers committed suicide. The German cultural authorities feel that those antique historical firearms may incite young people to go mad and act in killing frenzy (German: Amoklauf). In 2009, at Winnenden high-school, Southern Germany, and in a murder-suicide act, a 17-year old student shot 16 people imcluding himself. Actually, it was Swiss! cultural politicians who started that anti-historical firearms campaign in the 1990's. Consequently, large and important Swiss firearms collections have been banned from public exhibition and packed into the storage rooms. This happened to the large famous weapons collection at the Historisches Museum Berne, to the ample collections of the Swiss Landesmuseum Zurich and the Altes Zeughaus Solothurn, as well as to a other Swiss state museums. And it was the same sad story with German museums as well. By the early 1990's, almost all firearms have been withdrawn from the exhibition rooms of such important museums as the Bayerisches Nationalmuseum Munich, the Deutsches Historisches Museum/Altes Zeughaus Berlin or the wonderful arsenal collection at the Stadtmuseum/Zeughaus Munich - to name just a few of them. Most antique firearms, 300 to 600 years old, have even been withdrawn from the huge exhibition halls of the Bayrisches Armeemuseum Ingolstadt, only 30 km next to my home. They will never be on viewing again for at least the next 30 years! On the other hand, crossbows, edged weapons like swords and, of course, all kinds of armor, are still officially regarded as noble and gallant (German: edel), knightly or even kingly, and are not primarily defined as means of war, by both the official political and cultural Swiss and German authorities and the museums. Consequently, they are allowed to stay on exhibition, while antique firearms, even - or maybe especially - when they are the earliest ever made, like all guns in my collection, which holds not one single item that was manufactured after ca. 1720! Even the most antique firearms are officially condemned - politically, morally and culturally, and are regarded as endangering peaceful life and politics. The story is as sad as it is true. Most museum curators will look down in a highly suspicious way on any scholar asking to be granted access and do research on firearms and their accouterments. Many of those people, especially the so-called generation 1968, and of course female curators, even react personally and blatantly disgusted. Various times, I have been asked how I can manage to combine my academic interest in these items with my conscience, and have been affronted as being a firearms freak who is gaga about guns. Of course I have fired original 400 year-old muskets; is just part of my comprehensive research, and believe me: firing a matchlock musket that is 1.67 m long overall and weighs 1o kgs is an incomparable experience which leaves a lasting impression. Everybody who really knows me and both my personal and political serious creed realizes that I actually love and defend peace, as well as the rights of all political persecutees and refugees, that I respect all living beings, and especially humans, no matter what color their skin may be or what nation belong to. I have always fought for the good fight, and animal rights. I love and defend all animals, and especially cats, from the bottom of my heart! Not only am I a Christian and believe in God, I also graduated, among others, in Theology from Regensburg University in 1982. But I also love historical arsenal arms, just for their cultural, historical, technical, art historical and social importance; and they clearly document the fact that there are both sides to every medal, as well as every human being is, and will always be, giftet with both good and evil - the reverse of the medal. ************************* Vadim, thank you so much for supporting me, and believing in humanity and the heart - instead of blunt 'politics'! Best, Michael Trömner

19th June 2014, 03:42 PM	#4
dana_w Member Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: Southeast Florida, USA Posts: 436	I am also glad to see this topic back up for discussion. Matchlock makes some great points. Ignorance, apathy, and political correctness are a big problem for people who love history and historical weapons, especially firearms. This article was published in the UK’s Telegraph in 2000. It details the problems Keith Neal’s daughter had in finding a place to exhibit her late father's remarkable collection of historic firearms. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...treasures.html Last edited by dana_w; 19th June 2014 at 07:54 PM.

19th June 2014, 04:11 PM	#5
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,060	The right to form an opinion and to be able to express yourself, are prerequisites for a democratic society, any democratic society so also this forum. The freedom to have opinions, freely Exercising the mind and free speech can bring injustice to light and gives everyone the freedom to be critical and to interfere in all kind of discussions. An independent, diverse and free press is an essential prerequisite. In my country the Netherlands, it was agreed that the government should not control Censorship! everything can be said as long as there is no harm done to a person or group of persons. I have absolutely nothing (in common) with Johnny Cash and Kris Kristofferson but love antique weapons in every appearance. This forum vikingsword.com should, as long as it's about antique arms, allow every debate. best, Jasper Last edited by cornelistromp; 20th June 2014 at 11:22 AM.

19th June 2014, 11:41 PM	#7
Lee EAAF Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Upstate New York, USA Posts: 932	Caution is Suggested I should like to suggest a political action community such as avaaz.org with its community petition platform as a more appropriate venue for some of what has been going on here of late. 'Historic Firearms and mankind...' is under review as it is likely permissible in the new Ethnographic Miscellanea forum, but we need to develop a consensus among the moderator team. For now, caution is suggested to members about where they take this 'protest thread.'

19th June 2014, 10:48 AM	#1
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Marcus, My friend, THANKS! Best, Michl

19th June 2014, 03:17 PM	#3
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	Dear all, I can understand Michael's thread being closed, as it mentions Columbine, etc. But I Do believe that the important element of the thread should be open for discussion. To me, this part is the concern we must all share regarding the removal of very important early forearms from public viewing. What concerns me about this is; Who decides what is good for us, the public........on a national and international level? To decide what is good and not good for us, puts these individuals in a position of authority over us. This authority was not granted by the public at large, but another sign of the Nanny State, and voices should be raised against it. Andrew, This may come across as Political, but one cannot bury ones head in the sand, and expect to keep freedom of choice. Unfortunately, there are always those willing to take control of our lives for us, If we Let them. To me, the taking of such liberties are both sinister and subversive. If such people get away with it, we can be sure they will endeavour to further impose their wills on us in other directions as well. The ostrich approach to the problem is not going to work in these cases. Michael, Regarding your posts; I would join in the discussions more, as they are of interest to me, but my poor old dial-up cannot handle the volume of pictures you post, so until we go High-speed, I can't contribute much in a meaningful manner. All best wishes, Richard.

19th June 2014, 05:43 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	I am as keen as anyone here on the pursuit of knowledge and the study on antique weaponry and of course very much resent the progressive attitude toward them in academic, institutional and governmental circumstances. However while agreeing fully with openness in discussion concerning them here, I think it is important to avoid activism oriented commentary and impassioned rallying in these discussions. While we all must be aware of matters which involve policies and legal changes which directly effect the course of collecting and shipment of arms etc. as well as policy issues with many institutions , it is entirely counter productive to promote or incite reaction or response. It is an objective matter collectively here....what we do in response is a private matter. It is well understood that everyone here is fully capable of what approach and which channels are appropriate in order to effectively respond to these circumstances, and do not require provocative commentary or rallying. While we are all aware as well in the unfortunate issues with which Michael has been faced, and all agree in that he is one of our forums extremely valuable assets and I am sure we all would gladly do whatever we can to help. I would suggest and ask everyone here to please keep our attention to these matters on focus and constructive, and avoid impassioned exemplars such as tragic events and the like.

20th June 2014, 12:51 AM	#8
batjka Member Join Date: Mar 2014 Posts: 39	I am glad the thread got reopened. Sometimes you just can't separate life and politics, one affects the other. However, to condemn a whole class of historic objects is beyond ridiculous. After all, what is a gun? Just a pipe with a touch hole. A 2nd grader can make one in about 5 minutes, as long as a plumbing supply is nearby. Same with powder - charcoal can be easily made. Saltpeter, too - some manure and urine mixed together, a bit of time and voila! Do these politicians think they can really stop this? The genie is out of the bottle. But Michael's collection is not mere killing instruments - they are feats of human civilization. They don't just belong to him - they belong to humanity. And trying to outlaw or banish them will only lead to barbarity as people will stop admiring and learning from history. And then they will turn to making killing machines out of plumbing pipe.