Turkish knife

Tim Simmons · 19th November 2005, 11:37 AM

Yes I think you might have it, look here,
http://www.militaryhistoryonline.com...offensive.aspx

Freddy · 19th November 2005, 01:47 PM

Miyamoto, where did you find this pic ?

erlikhan · 19th November 2005, 03:21 PM

Very interesting! Can u pls show all of the sword? Does it have en suite mountings on scabbard or decoration on blade? I wonder if that is original or a later addition. Rivkin could perhaps have an idea about any possible Caucasian tribe with 6 pointed star ?

Freddy · 19th November 2005, 06:27 PM

I searched on the internet and found some other countries with a star and moon in their flag.

I found an old picture of an Egyptian flag with moon and 7 pointed star.

The flag of Azerbedjan shows a moon and an 8 pointed star.

Perhaps there's a country (in the Caucasus ?) which uses the symbol of an moon and a 6 pointed star. Who knows ?

Rivkin · 19th November 2005, 07:05 PM

Well, not being a specialist:

I've seen quite a lot of shashkas similar to one shown by Miyamoto. In my opinion, they all come from late XIX- early XX century, and may be represent some unknown military pattern (because they all have this 6 point star and crescent). On the other hand the quality of shashkas varies so...

Now to the symbolics - while 6 point star was videly used by turkish tribes, its use gradually decreased in favor of 5 and 8 point stars (turks, azeris, karachai, balkar).

6 point star is a symbol of Trabzon weaponry (afaik), but it is always depicted in a circle and without the crescent - as on yataghan's hilt that I attached to the message (btw it belonged to Lermontov. The blade was destroyed due to the soviet restrictions on "weapons".)

Now 6 point star, together with crescent and arrows is a symbol of Kabarda tribe (part of circassians). Ironically it is even persisted as part of ensignia of northern caucasus SS unit during WWII. Other adighes prefer to use 5 point stars.

6 point star with a crescent also have been heavily used in Ingushetia. It was also used by "jew-like" muslims in Karachai, and by a very small group of osethian muslisms.

Can it be a symbol of circassian units in Turkey ? I think more knowledgeble person has to be asked about it, since the symbol is somewhat too generic to pinpoint the exact origin.

I should also point out that six point star and a crescent was used by some of the russian pre-revolution troops from Uzbekistan.

Tim Simmons · 19th November 2005, 07:30 PM

I am going to complicate things further by focusing on the design of the guard/lamp bowl. To me it looks western European but objects do get exported and the French taste was and had been the fashion for a few centuries in Russia which in turn must have influenced the countries under the Tzarist regime but saying that the styles of metalwork from either Morocco or the Caucuses as shown on the shashka hilt, are not like the lamp bowl. This might narrow things down to a western front or eastern front and which Islamic troops fought there that would recognise a six pointed star and also most likely to have access to a French? bayonet. Or should I just shut up bearing in mind the yatagan type blade was used extensivly, I do not know. Tim

19th November 2005, 07:05 PM	#5
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	Well, not being a specialist: I've seen quite a lot of shashkas similar to one shown by Miyamoto. In my opinion, they all come from late XIX- early XX century, and may be represent some unknown military pattern (because they all have this 6 point star and crescent). On the other hand the quality of shashkas varies so... Now to the symbolics - while 6 point star was videly used by turkish tribes, its use gradually decreased in favor of 5 and 8 point stars (turks, azeris, karachai, balkar). 6 point star is a symbol of Trabzon weaponry (afaik), but it is always depicted in a circle and without the crescent - as on yataghan's hilt that I attached to the message (btw it belonged to Lermontov. The blade was destroyed due to the soviet restrictions on "weapons".) Now 6 point star, together with crescent and arrows is a symbol of Kabarda tribe (part of circassians). Ironically it is even persisted as part of ensignia of northern caucasus SS unit during WWII. Other adighes prefer to use 5 point stars. 6 point star with a crescent also have been heavily used in Ingushetia. It was also used by "jew-like" muslims in Karachai, and by a very small group of osethian muslisms. Can it be a symbol of circassian units in Turkey ? I think more knowledgeble person has to be asked about it, since the symbol is somewhat too generic to pinpoint the exact origin. I should also point out that six point star and a crescent was used by some of the russian pre-revolution troops from Uzbekistan. Attached Images

19th November 2005, 07:30 PM	#6
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,843	I am going to complicate things further by focusing on the design of the guard/lamp bowl. To me it looks western European but objects do get exported and the French taste was and had been the fashion for a few centuries in Russia which in turn must have influenced the countries under the Tzarist regime but saying that the styles of metalwork from either Morocco or the Caucuses as shown on the shashka hilt, are not like the lamp bowl. This might narrow things down to a western front or eastern front and which Islamic troops fought there that would recognise a six pointed star and also most likely to have access to a French? bayonet. Or should I just shut up bearing in mind the yatagan type blade was used extensivly, I do not know. Tim Last edited by Tim Simmons; 19th November 2005 at 08:01 PM.

19th November 2005, 11:37 AM	#1
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,843	Yes I think you might have it, look here, http://www.militaryhistoryonline.com...offensive.aspx

19th November 2005, 01:47 PM	#2
Freddy Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sint-Amandsberg (near Ghent, Belgium) Posts: 830	Miyamoto, where did you find this pic ?

19th November 2005, 03:21 PM	#3
erlikhan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Istanbul Posts: 452	Very interesting! Can u pls show all of the sword? Does it have en suite mountings on scabbard or decoration on blade? I wonder if that is original or a later addition. Rivkin could perhaps have an idea about any possible Caucasian tribe with 6 pointed star ?

19th November 2005, 06:27 PM	#4
Freddy Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sint-Amandsberg (near Ghent, Belgium) Posts: 830	I searched on the internet and found some other countries with a star and moon in their flag. I found an old picture of an Egyptian flag with moon and 7 pointed star. The flag of Azerbedjan shows a moon and an 8 pointed star. Perhaps there's a country (in the Caucasus ?) which uses the symbol of an moon and a 6 pointed star. Who knows ?