A French officer's fighting sword-comments please

M ELEY · 21st May 2014, 07:02 PM

The reason I bring up the wire wrapping is I personally think it helps point to those with wire binding as being naval. Another type commonly seen has a leather wrapping, which was obviously not typically used on sea-service swords. Here is an old thread from SwordForum that discusses this type sword with the examples of which I speak-

http://www.swordforum.com/forums/sho...fficer-s-sword

fernando · 22nd May 2014, 02:53 PM

Hi Capitão,
The French call it garde tournante (turning guard) if you care to browse on these swords.
I almost bought (swapped) one the other day, from a local private collector.
He has a couple of them and pretends the officer version is more elaborate, as shown here.

.

fernando · 22nd May 2014, 05:07 PM

... And with the plain pommel you have them with either brass and iron guard:

.

Jim McDougall · 23rd May 2014, 02:00 AM

Thank you so much for sharing this one Mark!!! and especially for the references and detail giving such outstanding perspective on these interesting hilt swords. I always find interesting notes like that on the wire wrap fascinating nuances which help so much in proper identification of swords.
Than you Nando for adding this also interesting example. It seems like these 'swivel' hilts existed on other swords as well, perhaps it was Polish examples? but cannot recall for sure .
In any case it is these kinds of entries that make this forum such a valued archive, not necessarily seeking opinions or in query, but simply sharing a very nice example and sharing researched data . Nicely done and much appreciated!!! ")
Im looking forward to someday when you open the Eley Maritime Museum!!! I'll set the GPS on this rig to be there Cap'n Mark!!!

M ELEY · 23rd May 2014, 02:30 AM

Thank you so much, gentlemen, for coming in on this one!

Fernando, excelllent examples that you posted! Not much on the net about this (other than that sword forum thread attached), so nice to see other examples. Actually, I do agree with your colleague that the lion hilt swivel might prove to be the more esthetic piece! I like both of them very much!
So, are you going to add one to your collection?

Interesting the various slight subtleties, such as the differences in four-slot guards, iron vs brass (iron being more infantry model, perhaps?), copper/brass wire vs leather. Even the garde Tournante (thanks for that term, 'Nando!) has differences, with your examples being wider with the loops incorporated into it. Mine has scalloped edging to the rotating knuckle bow, absent on some pieces. Some have a plain quillon, some a raised shell pattern. Even the guard-locking mechanism varies between types, as does the blade type, apparently. I'm told some were straighter, had blued/etched blades, etc. Mine has the traditional 'marine type' wedge blade. No-nonsense, wouldn't want to get hit by it on deck!!

Hello, fellow Cap'n Jim! Yes, I see the day I'll have me a little pirate museum or some such! I'll keep you informed! I thought perhaps there were other types of swivel-type guards, just hadn't seen much covered in any of my references. If you stumble across any pics, please post if you get the chance!
I'm wondering if the French were the oroginal designers and others followed suite?

Jim McDougall · 23rd May 2014, 03:15 AM

You bet Mark, Ill keep an eye out here in the Bookmobile, I think it was line drawing in one of those East European refs..Austro-Hungarian swords. The French did have quite a bit of influence on many forms throughout these areas it seems, just as their influences in fashion, language and culture set the standards in many courts.

M ELEY · 23rd May 2014, 03:41 AM

Thanks, Jim. This sword wasn't my particular style, but I added it to the collection because I think it shows a fascinating 'crossroads' in sword history. Early naval pieces carried by officers were typically anything they could get their hands on. As maritime weapons progressed (as you well know! I'm just laying this out as to my interest), officers began to carry fancy hangers. The early hunting swords developed into the cheaper, plain cutlasses(carried and used by the common sailor). Officers then began carrying a wider range of offer's type swords, often not even naval in origin (Annis points out infantry, cavalry, etc, with nautical connections). This very showy sword is one of those fancy types that were still very much functional in battle. Most 19th century offer's swords seemed purely dress with rare exceptions. Smallswords, fraternal swords and such were what the upper ranks started wearing. I think pieces like this are right at that period before function became obsolescent to sign of rank-

21st May 2014, 07:02 PM	#1
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,141	Further info The reason I bring up the wire wrapping is I personally think it helps point to those with wire binding as being naval. Another type commonly seen has a leather wrapping, which was obviously not typically used on sea-service swords. Here is an old thread from SwordForum that discusses this type sword with the examples of which I speak- http://www.swordforum.com/forums/sho...fficer-s-sword

22nd May 2014, 02:53 PM	#2
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Hi Capitão, The French call it garde tournante (turning guard) if you care to browse on these swords. I almost bought (swapped) one the other day, from a local private collector. He has a couple of them and pretends the officer version is more elaborate, as shown here. . Attached Images

22nd May 2014, 05:07 PM	#3
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	... And with the plain pommel you have them with either brass and iron guard: . Attached Images

23rd May 2014, 02:00 AM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	Thank you so much for sharing this one Mark!!! and especially for the references and detail giving such outstanding perspective on these interesting hilt swords. I always find interesting notes like that on the wire wrap fascinating nuances which help so much in proper identification of swords. Than you Nando for adding this also interesting example. It seems like these 'swivel' hilts existed on other swords as well, perhaps it was Polish examples? but cannot recall for sure . In any case it is these kinds of entries that make this forum such a valued archive, not necessarily seeking opinions or in query, but simply sharing a very nice example and sharing researched data . Nicely done and much appreciated!!! ") Im looking forward to someday when you open the Eley Maritime Museum!!! I'll set the GPS on this rig to be there Cap'n Mark!!!

23rd May 2014, 02:30 AM	#5
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,141	Thank you so much, gentlemen, for coming in on this one! Fernando, excelllent examples that you posted! Not much on the net about this (other than that sword forum thread attached), so nice to see other examples. Actually, I do agree with your colleague that the lion hilt swivel might prove to be the more esthetic piece! I like both of them very much! So, are you going to add one to your collection? Interesting the various slight subtleties, such as the differences in four-slot guards, iron vs brass (iron being more infantry model, perhaps?), copper/brass wire vs leather. Even the garde Tournante (thanks for that term, 'Nando!) has differences, with your examples being wider with the loops incorporated into it. Mine has scalloped edging to the rotating knuckle bow, absent on some pieces. Some have a plain quillon, some a raised shell pattern. Even the guard-locking mechanism varies between types, as does the blade type, apparently. I'm told some were straighter, had blued/etched blades, etc. Mine has the traditional 'marine type' wedge blade. No-nonsense, wouldn't want to get hit by it on deck!! Hello, fellow Cap'n Jim! Yes, I see the day I'll have me a little pirate museum or some such! I'll keep you informed! I thought perhaps there were other types of swivel-type guards, just hadn't seen much covered in any of my references. If you stumble across any pics, please post if you get the chance! I'm wondering if the French were the oroginal designers and others followed suite?

23rd May 2014, 03:15 AM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	You bet Mark, Ill keep an eye out here in the Bookmobile, I think it was line drawing in one of those East European refs..Austro-Hungarian swords. The French did have quite a bit of influence on many forms throughout these areas it seems, just as their influences in fashion, language and culture set the standards in many courts.

23rd May 2014, 03:41 AM	#7
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,141	Thanks, Jim. This sword wasn't my particular style, but I added it to the collection because I think it shows a fascinating 'crossroads' in sword history. Early naval pieces carried by officers were typically anything they could get their hands on. As maritime weapons progressed (as you well know! I'm just laying this out as to my interest), officers began to carry fancy hangers. The early hunting swords developed into the cheaper, plain cutlasses(carried and used by the common sailor). Officers then began carrying a wider range of offer's type swords, often not even naval in origin (Annis points out infantry, cavalry, etc, with nautical connections). This very showy sword is one of those fancy types that were still very much functional in battle. Most 19th century offer's swords seemed purely dress with rare exceptions. Smallswords, fraternal swords and such were what the upper ranks started wearing. I think pieces like this are right at that period before function became obsolescent to sign of rank-