Jambiya Scabbard

[kahnjar1]

Originally Posted by A.alnakkas

Hello

Yes Ehsa is Alhasa I am using my accent again >.> sorry.

The silver work is from Alhasa, some swordmakers still exist there too!

I included an example from my collection. An identical, provenanced example I know of in a Saudi collection also shows that these are made in alHasa.

The ones made in Southern KSA are very similar but there are subtle differences. The silver wire wrapping on the cloth part is not circular like the shown example, but checkered (will provide photos) and the scabbard chape is upturned on southern examples.

An example of an Al Ahsa Khanjar from my collection.
Richard....In answer to your question at #5 above regarding the difference ....the diamond shaped decorations in my experience do not appear on Omani work and are typical of Saudi/Yemeni scabbard decoration. If you look at the pic of the Omani "Royal" Khanjar at #2 above you will see that the diamond decoration is absent.
Stu

[russel]

In error I posted the above twice. Can't delete this message.
Moderators: is there a way to do this?

[russel]

Thanks for all this amazing information guys. I had no idea this item would illicit such a detailed discussion, I admire (and am humbled by) your scholarship. This is outside my collecting field(s), so other than the scabbard itself I have nothing to contribute to the discussion. Other than to thank you all, and enjoy reading the thread.

Thanks again,
Russel

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

An example of an Al Ahsa Khanjar from my collection.
Richard....In answer to your question at #5 above regarding the difference ....the diamond shaped decorations in my experience do not appear on Omani work and are typical of Saudi/Yemeni scabbard decoration. If you look at the pic of the Omani "Royal" Khanjar at #2 above you will see that the diamond decoration is absent.
Stu

Salaams khanjar 1, There appear to be two regions in Saudia with similar work;

1. Alhasa which is the old Al Bahrayn region in the East of Saudia...whose work has not yet been catalogued.

2. The region I have been talking about that is way down south on the Red Sea and with a Yemeni border...and that work has been aligned to the Muscat Khanjar through Muscat -Jazzan -Zanzibar trade.

I write only about the latter region where the daggers are known as Habaabi and centred on Abha in the Asir. ;

Regarding the silver diamond shaped rectangles # 5 above has them. Also see the Omani khanjar thread at #63 #113 and more importantly the Muscat Khanjar style from which the Habaabi came ..at # 143. What tends to be the case with Habaabi is that the hilt tend to be fatter as does the crown(Quba)...and the body has a tendency to be slimmer. I say tendency as its not always evident...thats what makes these weapons such a conundrum occasionally. I find them easy to distinguish when they are accompanied by the regions belt style or other markings (emblems) or sometimes the traditional regional work knife and by and the above factors and by the greater turn in the scabbard and by the "typical" use of a wide central hilt ring with above and below a trefoil arrangement with a large button at the base ..the largest and central leaves leaves pointing toward and extending under the wide central ring. See below examples~

http://www.flickr.com/photos/charlesfred/5512947198

http://www.flickr.com/photos/mytripsmypics/4336633417

http://www.flickr.com/photos/charlesfred/5780340287

http://www.flickr.com/photos/charlesfred/5780340299

http://www.flickr.com/photos/mytripsmypics/4318547823

It should be remembered that these were not copied from the Royal Omani saaidiyyah style(circa 1850...Sheherazad) but from the earlier Muscat Khanjar form.

If you look at #17 of The Omani Khanjar it shows the architypal Muscat Khanjar which does have the diamond decorations (though slightly blurred) and interestingly the curve in that particular hilt is more pronounced than normal Omani work. I believe the Asir... Habaabi version simply reflects those elements, though, it has developed slight idiosyncracies over the past couple of hundred years since its migration.

So regarding the diamond shaped silver rectangles.. Did that arrive with the Muscat Khanjar? Looking to Omani Silver by Ruth Hawley and the Robertson and Dorr publication...There are many examples of this diamond shaped or silver rectangle work on Hirz lucky charm boxes and I think that is where the style originates and since it is ancient (from the Greek) and reported on by General Nearchos apparently...thus the roots of the design are unquestionable...and as you say the Abha (Habaabi) weapons do often have that diamond shaped addition....which as I noted above are a direct take off/copy from the original Muscat Khanjar style.


Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Richard G]

Thank you gentlemen, for explaining this. I now get the idea, especially having gone back to some references I should have checked earlier, but:

The King Faisal Centre catalogue (page 56) has a pair of Al-Ahsa daggers described as "Doojaniyan" (meaning a pair?), but with the "chequered" wiring which Mr Alnakkas suggests is SKSA.

Richardson and Dorr (page 451) has a khunjar with a bu Sa'idi hilt but in a scabbard with the radiating diamond pattern, described as Omani.

Elgood's Arms and Armour of Arabia (page 82) shows a "typical Omani khanjar...Ibri(?)" which this thread would probably place in SKSA, particularly as it is on a Yemeni style belt.

Ruth Hawley's photo of a khanjar "probably made in the Sharqiyah" is remarkably similar to Stu's, but with "chequered" wiring and on an Omani style belt.

Also Ruth Hawley, in her narrative says "what can be said, however, is that the the modern geometric design and the diamond pattern so frequently seen on Omani silver probably came from Sanaa...and originated with Jewish silversmiths there. In Oman these designs are found extensively on Nizwa work, Sur and some work from Ibri. ...The most likely provenance of a hirz with geometric designs or applique diamond shapes is Nizwa."

So exceptions, conundrums and misattributions rule the roost! It makes life so much more interesting.
Thank you all very much
Richard

[kahnjar1]

Originally Posted by Richard G

Thank you gentlemen, for explaining this. I now get the idea, especially having gone back to some references I should have checked earlier, but:

The King Faisal Centre catalogue (page 56) has a pair of Al-Ahsa daggers described as "Doojaniyan" (meaning a pair?), but with the "chequered" wiring which Mr Alnakkas suggests is SKSA.

Richardson and Dorr (page 451) has a khunjar with a bu Sa'idi hilt but in a scabbard with the radiating diamond pattern, described as Omani.

Elgood's Arms and Armour of Arabia (page 82) shows a "typical Omani khanjar...Ibri(?)" which this thread would probably place in SKSA, particularly as it is on a Yemeni style belt.

Ruth Hawley's photo of a khanjar "probably made in the Sharqiyah" is remarkably similar to Stu's, but with "chequered" wiring and on an Omani style belt.

Also Ruth Hawley, in her narrative says "what can be said, however, is that the the modern geometric design and the diamond pattern so frequently seen on Omani silver probably came from Sanaa...and originated with Jewish silversmiths there. In Oman these designs are found extensively on Nizwa work, Sur and some work from Ibri. ...The most likely provenance of a hirz with geometric designs or applique diamond shapes is Nizwa."

So exceptions, conundrums and misattributions rule the roost! It makes life so much more interesting.
Thank you all very much
Richard

Hi Richard,
As you can see from the references you quote here, identification and origins of different styles are varied depending on who's description you are referring to.
This is also applicable here on the Forum as it must be remembered that opinions expressed here are just that---OPINIONS, and we have all probably used printed matter to arrive at our various decisions.
Those who live in the particular countries where these items originate also are only expressing opinions, as many of the items discussed are a blend of different styles. Concrete identification IMHO can only come from WELL DOCUMENTED SOURCES.
I have the King Faisal book in my library, and as far as the description "DOOJANIYAN" is concerned, I have interpreted it to be the TYPE of Jambiya and not to do with a pair. The King Faisal Center surely must be reasonably well informed as to correct terminology.
Stu

[russel]

Perhaps this is a rather mundane question from a novice, but to satisfy my curiosity: what would be a fair estimate of the age of this scabbard?

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Richard G

Thank you gentlemen, for explaining this. I now get the idea, especially having gone back to some references I should have checked earlier, but:

The King Faisal Centre catalogue (page 56) has a pair of Al-Ahsa daggers described as "Doojaniyan" (meaning a pair?), but with the "chequered" wiring which Mr Alnakkas suggests is SKSA.

Richardson and Dorr (page 451) has a khunjar with a bu Sa'idi hilt but in a scabbard with the radiating diamond pattern, described as Omani.

Elgood's Arms and Armour of Arabia (page 82) shows a "typical Omani khanjar...Ibri(?)" which this thread would probably place in SKSA, particularly as it is on a Yemeni style belt.

Ruth Hawley's photo of a khanjar "probably made in the Sharqiyah" is remarkably similar to Stu's, but with "chequered" wiring and on an Omani style belt.

Also Ruth Hawley, in her narrative says "what can be said, however, is that the the modern geometric design and the diamond pattern so frequently seen on Omani silver probably came from Sanaa...and originated with Jewish silversmiths there. In Oman these designs are found extensively on Nizwa work, Sur and some work from Ibri. ...The most likely provenance of a hirz with geometric designs or applique diamond shapes is Nizwa."

So exceptions, conundrums and misattributions rule the roost! It makes life so much more interesting.
Thank you all very much
Richard

Salaams Richard G. You aren't kidding !! A Great post by the way !!
Unpicking some of the narrow differences is a bit of a Houdini act but the references your references are superb... The Ruth Hawley is a bit blurred in my copy but her narrative cannot be questioned..The Richardson and Dorr item is tantalizing and difficult to place but is Omani...Rightaway I have pointed to little documentation on the al hasa thus I hope that is to be done by someone in that region...It certainly makes for an interesting puzzle...
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

So to be clear~ The two regions I have compared are Muscat and the Asir which was in Yemen prior to about 1920. The link appears to be from trade as the regions main port at Jazzan has dominated Red Sea trade for centuries and is on the Muscat to Zanzibar sea route.

In terms of references Ruth Hawley produced a brilliant but small pamphlet which for decades was all we had here to go by...The Richardson and Dorr, however, is a magnificent heavily backed and funded Cultural Foundation masterwork of colosal proportions, by comparison. Ruth correctly addresses in broad terms the parameters possible on certain patterns and objects spanning a huge area. The terms of reference in respect of time periods are understandably very, very broad. Both references are in my view perfectly balanced in their own right..

I have no idea about the Elgood nor have I got access to the Saudia document. Further more; any reference to a third region with similar weapons should be investigated but until that is separately assessed until those facts are known thus until then it is suggested that the Al Hasa material be looked at and logged but for now that part of the equation (if there is one) may be pencilled in the margin.

What seems clear is the regional hub effect of the great sea port of Jazzan and the fact that Oman controlled Zanzibar/neighboring parts of coastal Africa thus the sea route included trade from Muscat and Zanzibar through Jazzan for materials and likely slaves, Ivory, Rhino Horn, materials and provisions etc.

The Muscat Khanjar, therefor, is perhaps not a surprising element in the weaponry of such a hand in hand partner in trade.....but a very interesting conundrum.

See #143 at The Omani Khanjar thread for confirmation of this detail.

[Richard G]

Found this. described as "Bedouin, Riyadh, 1964".
The radiating lozenge pattern on the scabbard can clearly be seen. The pattern of the hilt is a little more difficult to distinguish. Unfortunately, being worn by a bedouin, I presume it cannot be concluded the dagger came from Riyadh.
Regards
Richard

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Richard G

Found this. described as "Bedouin, Riyadh, 1964".
The radiating lozenge pattern on the scabbard can clearly be seen. The pattern of the hilt is a little more difficult to distinguish. Unfortunately, being worn by a bedouin, I presume it cannot be concluded the dagger came from Riyadh.
Regards
Richard

Salaams Richard G. This weapon is worn by a Bedouin gentleman from the Asir region... The hilt is typically "Bedouin style" rounded at the pommel but probably started life as a TEE shaped pommel. The rest of the weapon is as for the Habaabi, Abha, Asir style. The region previously of Yemeni ownership ..pre circa 1921 ...then KSA.

see #15 for

http://www.flickr.com/photos/charlesfred/5512947198

http://www.flickr.com/photos/mytripsmypics/4336633417

http://www.flickr.com/photos/charlesfred/5780340287

http://www.flickr.com/photos/charlesfred/5780340299

http://www.flickr.com/photos/mytripsmypics/4318547823

Ibrahiim al Balooshi.