Cretan Revolution Weapons 18th century

fernando · 2nd May 2014, 01:10 PM

Hi guys,
I sincerely don't understand why any thread containing doubts about where it should be better posted can not be moved or, in the context, copied to another sub-forum.
It was the thread author himself who said the pistol had an European origin and an European lock.
There are certainly members who more frequently (or only) visit one of the forum sections and the thread author (and us all) may only benefit with a wider range of contributions.
I take it that we are all here to collaborate ones with each other; all of us. If the thread was cloned to the European section soon as it was suggested, some approaches would have not taken place as well as any consequent position of strength ... which is always something bitter to swallow.

.

Jim McDougall · 2nd May 2014, 04:08 PM

Very well said Nando. It seems there have always been tenuous concerns over whether an item is 'ethnographic' or if it may be considered European , particularly in regions either European colonized or with profound trade with Europe. Much of this has of course been due to the use of European made components in indigenous weapons, or sometimes hybridized forms reflecting European influence.

This was the very reason the European Armoury was begun some years ago. It seemed to me that it would be helpful to have a centralized forum which could focus on the study of the weapon forms which influenced and often provided components in many ethnographic forms. Obviously, in many cases it was difficult to determine which category certain anomalies might be better placed in , and the concept of cross referencing has worked effectively in many instances.

I believe most of the unfortunate misunderstanding in this thread developed from a suggestion that this protocol might have served to facilitate it better which was mistaken in meaning. The point that you make noting that if these weapons were placed in both forums, we would have had the benefit of both considerable fields of knowledge........a most salient point!

The idea that yataghans should be placed in the European section was of course seemingly preposterous, and the rather uncommonly held idea of Greece and Balkans being part of Europe despite being tenuously true revealed interesting perspective to this dilemma. As well noted by Ibrahiim, the concept of Europe geographically is in many cases to do with perception and these regions of the Balkans, Greece and even Russia are considered peripheral parts of Europe.

I would offer cases where yataghans could very well fall into the more stringent European category, and those would primarily have to do with auxiliary units in the armies of European countries using ethnic groups from the Balkans, based often on the Pandour units of the 18th century. There are a good number of examples of these types of yataghans made for European officers, and I have seen them even with European cyphers and motif on the blades.

Oliver Pinchot · 2nd May 2014, 04:37 PM

Many thanks are due to Skarts for bringing this yatagan and pistol to our attention. The fact that they are well-provenanced is very helpful in studying the forms and decoration found on Greek and Ottoman weapons.

The level of workmanship is substantially above average. The stand of arms depicted on the breech plate is more or less typical of Ottoman motifs, however the human and animal figures on the counterplate are uncommon. The depiction of Christ Crowned on the triggerguard is exceptional.

Again, thanks to Skarts for providing these intriguing examples.

Oliver Pinchot

Jim McDougall · 2nd May 2014, 05:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oliver Pinchot

Many thanks are due to Skarts for bringing this yatagan and pistol to our attention. The fact that they are well-provenanced is very helpful in studying the forms and decoration found on Greek and Ottoman weapons.

The level of workmanship is substantially above average. The stand of arms depicted on the breech plate is more or less typical of Ottoman motifs, however the human and animal figures on the counterplate are uncommon. The depiction of Christ Crowned on the triggerguard is exceptional.

Again, thanks to Skarts for providing these intriguing examples.

Oliver Pinchot

Thank you Oliver for joining in here!! Its great to see you!

As always your input and observations are paramount.

All the best,
Jim

Jim McDougall · 2nd May 2014, 11:25 PM

Looking further in the Vasilatos book I found more on the scabbard tip motif:

"...the lower part of the silver scabbards almost always end at a dragon or dolphin head, thus creating an integrated decorative impression at the final end of these precious objects".

Andrew · 2nd May 2014, 11:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Hi guys,
I sincerely don't understand why any thread containing doubts about where it should be better posted can not be moved or, in the context, copied to another sub-forum.
It was the thread author himself who said the pistol had an European origin and an European lock.
There are certainly members who more frequently (or only) visit one of the forum sections and the thread author (and us all) may only benefit with a wider range of contributions.
I take it that we are all here to collaborate ones with each other; all of us. If the thread was cloned to the European section soon as it was suggested, some approaches would have not taken place as well as any consequent position of strength ... which is always something bitter to swallow.

.

Nando, I had intended copy the thread link to the Euro forum yesterday, but completely forgot. :0

Will remedy that now.

A

Jim McDougall · 3rd May 2014, 11:38 PM

Now that we have mirrored this thread over from the ethnographic forum, to run concurrently we are hoping that the topic of these Cretan weapons might stir some interest here as well . The fact that these are peripherally European weapons as well as being part of the ethnographic sphere suggests that perhaps dual classification might bring more response .

We are hoping that other Cretan weapons might be entered here for comparison, while we look at the distinct features found on them .

fernando · 4th May 2014, 09:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew

Nando, I had intended copy the thread link to the Euro forum yesterday, but completely forgot. :0

Will remedy that now.

A

Marcus den toom · 5th May 2014, 02:53 PM

A interesting pistol indeed, mainly because of the family history which allows us to date it. Without this information i would have guessed that this piece, eventhough the iron/silver (?) work is well made, is not older than 50+ years or so

.
There is a rather lively market for pistols when offered to tourist and you see these products more than often.

This pistol however has quite a lot of original parts, like the lock, counterplate, screws etc. A better picture would be helpfull to determine if the stock and barrel are original to the complete piece as well (not trying to contradict the family history) since caution is even more important on these guns

I also want to point out that a close examination of the brass butstock end cap would be enlightening. The form is strange to me

Skarts_ss · 14th May 2014, 02:13 PM

Guys!!!Now i saw all these....sorry about not sending more pics. I think that the pistol is European and was sold in Crete during the revolutionary years. I have seen in other collections different pistols of Cretan origin that look like Ottoman to me...to tell the truth i have seen many weapons of different origins here in Crete. Thats why i posted these weapons, in order to find out the exact origin.

Skarts_ss · 14th May 2014, 02:42 PM

How about these weapons?Photograph (black and white); cabinet card; portrait of a Cretan revolutionary chief he has a basalis (knife) and pistols tucked into his zounari, and a rifle in front of him leaning on the rocks; Crete, Greece.

batjka · 15th May 2014, 04:15 PM

I would NOT want to mess with this guy. Thanks for sharing.

E Farrell · 20th May 2014, 12:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skarts_ss

How about these weapons?Photograph (black and white); cabinet card; portrait of a Cretan revolutionary chief he has a basalis (knife) and pistols tucked into his zounari, and a rifle in front of him leaning on the rocks; Crete, Greece.

Do you happen to know anything about the etymology of the word basalis? Is it associated with social rank at all; does he carry that specifically because he is a chief, or would others carry a basalis as well?

I'm curious whether or not it comes from the same root as basileus, or if it's just the English transliterations that look similar?

OP: the Yatagan is gorgeous. Was it originally gilt? Do you know what the scabbard is made of? I can't quite tell from the image - it looks texturally like antler, but seems too large for that.

Andreas · 21st May 2014, 04:29 PM

[QUOTE=E Farrell]Do you happen to know anything about the etymology of the word basalis? Is it associated with social rank at all; does he carry that specifically because he is a chief, or would others carry a basalis as well?

I'm curious whether or not it comes from the same root as basileus, or if it's just the English transliterations that look similar?

Basalis (stress on last syllable) derives from the Turkish word baş, head, chief, especial and the meaning is a superior knife. Anyone could carry it.

14th May 2014, 02:42 PM	#11
Skarts_ss Member Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 47	How about these weapons?Photograph (black and white); cabinet card; portrait of a Cretan revolutionary chief he has a basalis (knife) and pistols tucked into his zounari, and a rifle in front of him leaning on the rocks; Crete, Greece. Attached Images

2nd May 2014, 01:10 PM	#1
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Hi guys, I sincerely don't understand why any thread containing doubts about where it should be better posted can not be moved or, in the context, copied to another sub-forum. It was the thread author himself who said the pistol had an European origin and an European lock. There are certainly members who more frequently (or only) visit one of the forum sections and the thread author (and us all) may only benefit with a wider range of contributions. I take it that we are all here to collaborate ones with each other; all of us. If the thread was cloned to the European section soon as it was suggested, some approaches would have not taken place as well as any consequent position of strength ... which is always something bitter to swallow. .

2nd May 2014, 04:08 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Very well said Nando. It seems there have always been tenuous concerns over whether an item is 'ethnographic' or if it may be considered European , particularly in regions either European colonized or with profound trade with Europe. Much of this has of course been due to the use of European made components in indigenous weapons, or sometimes hybridized forms reflecting European influence. This was the very reason the European Armoury was begun some years ago. It seemed to me that it would be helpful to have a centralized forum which could focus on the study of the weapon forms which influenced and often provided components in many ethnographic forms. Obviously, in many cases it was difficult to determine which category certain anomalies might be better placed in , and the concept of cross referencing has worked effectively in many instances. I believe most of the unfortunate misunderstanding in this thread developed from a suggestion that this protocol might have served to facilitate it better which was mistaken in meaning. The point that you make noting that if these weapons were placed in both forums, we would have had the benefit of both considerable fields of knowledge........a most salient point! The idea that yataghans should be placed in the European section was of course seemingly preposterous, and the rather uncommonly held idea of Greece and Balkans being part of Europe despite being tenuously true revealed interesting perspective to this dilemma. As well noted by Ibrahiim, the concept of Europe geographically is in many cases to do with perception and these regions of the Balkans, Greece and even Russia are considered peripheral parts of Europe. I would offer cases where yataghans could very well fall into the more stringent European category, and those would primarily have to do with auxiliary units in the armies of European countries using ethnic groups from the Balkans, based often on the Pandour units of the 18th century. There are a good number of examples of these types of yataghans made for European officers, and I have seen them even with European cyphers and motif on the blades.

2nd May 2014, 04:37 PM	#3
Oliver Pinchot Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 465	Many thanks are due to Skarts for bringing this yatagan and pistol to our attention. The fact that they are well-provenanced is very helpful in studying the forms and decoration found on Greek and Ottoman weapons. The level of workmanship is substantially above average. The stand of arms depicted on the breech plate is more or less typical of Ottoman motifs, however the human and animal figures on the counterplate are uncommon. The depiction of Christ Crowned on the triggerguard is exceptional. Again, thanks to Skarts for providing these intriguing examples. Oliver Pinchot

2nd May 2014, 11:25 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Looking further in the Vasilatos book I found more on the scabbard tip motif: "...the lower part of the silver scabbards almost always end at a dragon or dolphin head, thus creating an integrated decorative impression at the final end of these precious objects".

3rd May 2014, 11:38 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Now that we have mirrored this thread over from the ethnographic forum, to run concurrently we are hoping that the topic of these Cretan weapons might stir some interest here as well . The fact that these are peripherally European weapons as well as being part of the ethnographic sphere suggests that perhaps dual classification might bring more response . We are hoping that other Cretan weapons might be entered here for comparison, while we look at the distinct features found on them .

5th May 2014, 02:53 PM	#9
Marcus den toom Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: Netherlands Posts: 535	A interesting pistol indeed, mainly because of the family history which allows us to date it. Without this information i would have guessed that this piece, eventhough the iron/silver (?) work is well made, is not older than 50+ years or so . There is a rather lively market for pistols when offered to tourist and you see these products more than often. This pistol however has quite a lot of original parts, like the lock, counterplate, screws etc. A better picture would be helpfull to determine if the stock and barrel are original to the complete piece as well (not trying to contradict the family history) since caution is even more important on these guns I also want to point out that a close examination of the brass butstock end cap would be enlightening. The form is strange to me

14th May 2014, 02:13 PM	#10
Skarts_ss Member Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 47	Guys!!!Now i saw all these....sorry about not sending more pics. I think that the pistol is European and was sold in Crete during the revolutionary years. I have seen in other collections different pistols of Cretan origin that look like Ottoman to me...to tell the truth i have seen many weapons of different origins here in Crete. Thats why i posted these weapons, in order to find out the exact origin.

15th May 2014, 04:15 PM	#12
batjka Member Join Date: Mar 2014 Posts: 39	I would NOT want to mess with this guy. Thanks for sharing.

21st May 2014, 04:29 PM	#14
Andreas Member Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: Ionian Islands, Greece Posts: 96	[QUOTE=E Farrell]Do you happen to know anything about the etymology of the word basalis? Is it associated with social rank at all; does he carry that specifically because he is a chief, or would others carry a basalis as well? I'm curious whether or not it comes from the same root as basileus, or if it's just the English transliterations that look similar? Basalis (stress on last syllable) derives from the Turkish word baş, head, chief, especial and the meaning is a superior knife. Anyone could carry it.