Cretan Revolution Weapons 18th century

Jim McDougall · 2nd May 2014, 12:06 AM

Actually all I said was I was surprised there was not any response to the posts, even after Skarts agreed to post more pictures, and I thought at least the ones already there were good enough at least to start a discussion .

I simply reopened the thread because I thought the topic was interesting and certainly did not want to start an international incident!!! Good grief!!!
This was about the forum heading, and entirely a geographic issue concerning these countries..thats all!!!
There is no reason to go off on all these tangents on race etc.!!!

Lets get back to the discussion on Cretan arms HERE, and focus on that topic....I went through chaos to excavate my books here in the bookmobile, and I don't want all that for nothing!

Any further posts I expect will be on these weapons or historical data around them........no more editorials!

Thanks guys

Andrew · 2nd May 2014, 12:25 AM

This thread is surreal.

The European Armoury sub-forum was created for discussion of "History and development of European arms and armor, ancient through medieval and up to the close of the 19th century." It is not "racialist", "nationalistic", or "colonialistic". It was created for housekeeping purposes so the Forum staff could better manage moderation duties. The Keris Warung Kopi was created for the same reason. Nothing more.

Back on topic or this thread will be closed.

Jim McDougall · 2nd May 2014, 06:21 AM

To continue a look into these two weapons, and I do hope Skarts will return..as I mentioned I retrieved two references which I hope can help here somewhat. The first is the book "The Arms of Greece: And Her Balkan Neighbors" by Dr Robert Elgood (2009), and the other is "The Cretan Dagger" by Nikos Vasilatos (1993), which is in Greek but with extracts in English.

These references are detailed and complex for someone such as myself entirely unfamiliar with the arms of these regions, but I sincerely wanted to offer at least some kind of helpful observations. In my first hours of going through mostly Elgood, which is a phenomenal work and characteristic of his thorough detail, I can offer a few notes.

The pistol resembles two seen in Elgood (#105,106) in its straighter profile of the butt, somewhat in the manner of the Greek and Albanian 'roka' (rat tailed pistols) but obviously far from defined similarity. In the notes toward the lock, I would believe it is more probably Brescian, as these seem to have been more prevalent in these regions in Greece, so Cretan circumstances likely to follow. In around 1806 the Brescian makers did follow French designs in degree, so that might lend to the French attribution.

I found it curious that this pistol was flintlock, but Elgood notes the very conservative nature of Balkan society toward arms and costume. Here I would note that most of the observations pertaining to Greek or Balkan arms in general might be construed as non applicable to Crete, however it seems the influences would have been well diffused despite some differences.
While percussion locks were known by around 1847, it seems that in many regions in the 19th century, flintlocks were still favored as they did not require the more stringent ammunition supplies that percussion did.

On the yataghan, it seems that I saw a note suggesting blades were narrower, but need to relocate. On the motif, the most notable to me is the distinct zoomorphic chape decoration which apparently represents a snake.
These seem prevalent on scabbards throughout Balkan regions and the symbolism appears to be apotropaic, to ward off the evil eye, and also represents justice . There is a saying or motto, 'na se phaei to phidi' (= may the snake get you) which might align with that concept.
In Montenegrin legends one subject was a great warrior called 'ljuta zmija'
(=fierce serpent) which also might be alluded to with these scabbard tip motifs.
* another interesting note on these lines is that Montenegrins, Albanians and Greeks typically referred collectively to firearms as 'snakes', but obviously this is not related directly to the scabbard motif on edged weapons.

These were turbulent times in these regions, and I think it is important for our review and discussion of these arms to remain objective, and to realize that in war and conflicts unpleasant circumstances prevailed. Our study is focused on the arms as historic objects only, and must be considered respectfully .

I do hope these few observations will at least give some perspective on this pistol and yataghan, and that other others will follow.

fernando · 2nd May 2014, 01:10 PM

Hi guys,
I sincerely don't understand why any thread containing doubts about where it should be better posted can not be moved or, in the context, copied to another sub-forum.
It was the thread author himself who said the pistol had an European origin and an European lock.
There are certainly members who more frequently (or only) visit one of the forum sections and the thread author (and us all) may only benefit with a wider range of contributions.
I take it that we are all here to collaborate ones with each other; all of us. If the thread was cloned to the European section soon as it was suggested, some approaches would have not taken place as well as any consequent position of strength ... which is always something bitter to swallow.

.

Jim McDougall · 2nd May 2014, 04:08 PM

Very well said Nando. It seems there have always been tenuous concerns over whether an item is 'ethnographic' or if it may be considered European , particularly in regions either European colonized or with profound trade with Europe. Much of this has of course been due to the use of European made components in indigenous weapons, or sometimes hybridized forms reflecting European influence.

This was the very reason the European Armoury was begun some years ago. It seemed to me that it would be helpful to have a centralized forum which could focus on the study of the weapon forms which influenced and often provided components in many ethnographic forms. Obviously, in many cases it was difficult to determine which category certain anomalies might be better placed in , and the concept of cross referencing has worked effectively in many instances.

I believe most of the unfortunate misunderstanding in this thread developed from a suggestion that this protocol might have served to facilitate it better which was mistaken in meaning. The point that you make noting that if these weapons were placed in both forums, we would have had the benefit of both considerable fields of knowledge........a most salient point!

The idea that yataghans should be placed in the European section was of course seemingly preposterous, and the rather uncommonly held idea of Greece and Balkans being part of Europe despite being tenuously true revealed interesting perspective to this dilemma. As well noted by Ibrahiim, the concept of Europe geographically is in many cases to do with perception and these regions of the Balkans, Greece and even Russia are considered peripheral parts of Europe.

I would offer cases where yataghans could very well fall into the more stringent European category, and those would primarily have to do with auxiliary units in the armies of European countries using ethnic groups from the Balkans, based often on the Pandour units of the 18th century. There are a good number of examples of these types of yataghans made for European officers, and I have seen them even with European cyphers and motif on the blades.

Oliver Pinchot · 2nd May 2014, 04:37 PM

Many thanks are due to Skarts for bringing this yatagan and pistol to our attention. The fact that they are well-provenanced is very helpful in studying the forms and decoration found on Greek and Ottoman weapons.

The level of workmanship is substantially above average. The stand of arms depicted on the breech plate is more or less typical of Ottoman motifs, however the human and animal figures on the counterplate are uncommon. The depiction of Christ Crowned on the triggerguard is exceptional.

Again, thanks to Skarts for providing these intriguing examples.

Oliver Pinchot

Jim McDougall · 2nd May 2014, 05:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oliver Pinchot

Many thanks are due to Skarts for bringing this yatagan and pistol to our attention. The fact that they are well-provenanced is very helpful in studying the forms and decoration found on Greek and Ottoman weapons.

The level of workmanship is substantially above average. The stand of arms depicted on the breech plate is more or less typical of Ottoman motifs, however the human and animal figures on the counterplate are uncommon. The depiction of Christ Crowned on the triggerguard is exceptional.

Again, thanks to Skarts for providing these intriguing examples.

Oliver Pinchot

Thank you Oliver for joining in here!! Its great to see you!

As always your input and observations are paramount.

All the best,
Jim

Andrew · 2nd May 2014, 11:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Hi guys,
I sincerely don't understand why any thread containing doubts about where it should be better posted can not be moved or, in the context, copied to another sub-forum.
It was the thread author himself who said the pistol had an European origin and an European lock.
There are certainly members who more frequently (or only) visit one of the forum sections and the thread author (and us all) may only benefit with a wider range of contributions.
I take it that we are all here to collaborate ones with each other; all of us. If the thread was cloned to the European section soon as it was suggested, some approaches would have not taken place as well as any consequent position of strength ... which is always something bitter to swallow.

.

Nando, I had intended copy the thread link to the Euro forum yesterday, but completely forgot. :0

Will remedy that now.

A

Jim McDougall · 3rd May 2014, 11:38 PM

Now that we have mirrored this thread over from the ethnographic forum, to run concurrently we are hoping that the topic of these Cretan weapons might stir some interest here as well . The fact that these are peripherally European weapons as well as being part of the ethnographic sphere suggests that perhaps dual classification might bring more response .

We are hoping that other Cretan weapons might be entered here for comparison, while we look at the distinct features found on them .

fernando · 4th May 2014, 09:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew

Nando, I had intended copy the thread link to the Euro forum yesterday, but completely forgot. :0

Will remedy that now.

A

Marcus den toom · 5th May 2014, 02:53 PM

A interesting pistol indeed, mainly because of the family history which allows us to date it. Without this information i would have guessed that this piece, eventhough the iron/silver (?) work is well made, is not older than 50+ years or so

.
There is a rather lively market for pistols when offered to tourist and you see these products more than often.

This pistol however has quite a lot of original parts, like the lock, counterplate, screws etc. A better picture would be helpfull to determine if the stock and barrel are original to the complete piece as well (not trying to contradict the family history) since caution is even more important on these guns

I also want to point out that a close examination of the brass butstock end cap would be enlightening. The form is strange to me

Skarts_ss · 14th May 2014, 02:13 PM

Guys!!!Now i saw all these....sorry about not sending more pics. I think that the pistol is European and was sold in Crete during the revolutionary years. I have seen in other collections different pistols of Cretan origin that look like Ottoman to me...to tell the truth i have seen many weapons of different origins here in Crete. Thats why i posted these weapons, in order to find out the exact origin.

Skarts_ss · 14th May 2014, 02:42 PM

How about these weapons?Photograph (black and white); cabinet card; portrait of a Cretan revolutionary chief he has a basalis (knife) and pistols tucked into his zounari, and a rifle in front of him leaning on the rocks; Crete, Greece.

batjka · 15th May 2014, 04:15 PM

I would NOT want to mess with this guy. Thanks for sharing.

E Farrell · 20th May 2014, 12:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skarts_ss

How about these weapons?Photograph (black and white); cabinet card; portrait of a Cretan revolutionary chief he has a basalis (knife) and pistols tucked into his zounari, and a rifle in front of him leaning on the rocks; Crete, Greece.

Do you happen to know anything about the etymology of the word basalis? Is it associated with social rank at all; does he carry that specifically because he is a chief, or would others carry a basalis as well?

I'm curious whether or not it comes from the same root as basileus, or if it's just the English transliterations that look similar?

OP: the Yatagan is gorgeous. Was it originally gilt? Do you know what the scabbard is made of? I can't quite tell from the image - it looks texturally like antler, but seems too large for that.

2nd May 2014, 12:25 AM	#2
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	Moderator's Comment This thread is surreal. The European Armoury sub-forum was created for discussion of "History and development of European arms and armor, ancient through medieval and up to the close of the 19th century." It is not "racialist", "nationalistic", or "colonialistic". It was created for housekeeping purposes so the Forum staff could better manage moderation duties. The Keris Warung Kopi was created for the same reason. Nothing more. Back on topic or this thread will be closed.

14th May 2014, 02:42 PM	#13
Skarts_ss Member Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 47	How about these weapons?Photograph (black and white); cabinet card; portrait of a Cretan revolutionary chief he has a basalis (knife) and pistols tucked into his zounari, and a rifle in front of him leaning on the rocks; Crete, Greece. Attached Images

2nd May 2014, 12:06 AM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	Actually all I said was I was surprised there was not any response to the posts, even after Skarts agreed to post more pictures, and I thought at least the ones already there were good enough at least to start a discussion . I simply reopened the thread because I thought the topic was interesting and certainly did not want to start an international incident!!! Good grief!!! This was about the forum heading, and entirely a geographic issue concerning these countries..thats all!!! There is no reason to go off on all these tangents on race etc.!!! Lets get back to the discussion on Cretan arms HERE, and focus on that topic....I went through chaos to excavate my books here in the bookmobile, and I don't want all that for nothing! Any further posts I expect will be on these weapons or historical data around them........no more editorials! Thanks guys

2nd May 2014, 06:21 AM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	To continue a look into these two weapons, and I do hope Skarts will return..as I mentioned I retrieved two references which I hope can help here somewhat. The first is the book "The Arms of Greece: And Her Balkan Neighbors" by Dr Robert Elgood (2009), and the other is "The Cretan Dagger" by Nikos Vasilatos (1993), which is in Greek but with extracts in English. These references are detailed and complex for someone such as myself entirely unfamiliar with the arms of these regions, but I sincerely wanted to offer at least some kind of helpful observations. In my first hours of going through mostly Elgood, which is a phenomenal work and characteristic of his thorough detail, I can offer a few notes. The pistol resembles two seen in Elgood (#105,106) in its straighter profile of the butt, somewhat in the manner of the Greek and Albanian 'roka' (rat tailed pistols) but obviously far from defined similarity. In the notes toward the lock, I would believe it is more probably Brescian, as these seem to have been more prevalent in these regions in Greece, so Cretan circumstances likely to follow. In around 1806 the Brescian makers did follow French designs in degree, so that might lend to the French attribution. I found it curious that this pistol was flintlock, but Elgood notes the very conservative nature of Balkan society toward arms and costume. Here I would note that most of the observations pertaining to Greek or Balkan arms in general might be construed as non applicable to Crete, however it seems the influences would have been well diffused despite some differences. While percussion locks were known by around 1847, it seems that in many regions in the 19th century, flintlocks were still favored as they did not require the more stringent ammunition supplies that percussion did. On the yataghan, it seems that I saw a note suggesting blades were narrower, but need to relocate. On the motif, the most notable to me is the distinct zoomorphic chape decoration which apparently represents a snake. These seem prevalent on scabbards throughout Balkan regions and the symbolism appears to be apotropaic, to ward off the evil eye, and also represents justice . There is a saying or motto, 'na se phaei to phidi' (= may the snake get you) which might align with that concept. In Montenegrin legends one subject was a great warrior called 'ljuta zmija' (=fierce serpent) which also might be alluded to with these scabbard tip motifs. * another interesting note on these lines is that Montenegrins, Albanians and Greeks typically referred collectively to firearms as 'snakes', but obviously this is not related directly to the scabbard motif on edged weapons. These were turbulent times in these regions, and I think it is important for our review and discussion of these arms to remain objective, and to realize that in war and conflicts unpleasant circumstances prevailed. Our study is focused on the arms as historic objects only, and must be considered respectfully . I do hope these few observations will at least give some perspective on this pistol and yataghan, and that other others will follow.

2nd May 2014, 01:10 PM	#4
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Hi guys, I sincerely don't understand why any thread containing doubts about where it should be better posted can not be moved or, in the context, copied to another sub-forum. It was the thread author himself who said the pistol had an European origin and an European lock. There are certainly members who more frequently (or only) visit one of the forum sections and the thread author (and us all) may only benefit with a wider range of contributions. I take it that we are all here to collaborate ones with each other; all of us. If the thread was cloned to the European section soon as it was suggested, some approaches would have not taken place as well as any consequent position of strength ... which is always something bitter to swallow. .

2nd May 2014, 04:08 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	Very well said Nando. It seems there have always been tenuous concerns over whether an item is 'ethnographic' or if it may be considered European , particularly in regions either European colonized or with profound trade with Europe. Much of this has of course been due to the use of European made components in indigenous weapons, or sometimes hybridized forms reflecting European influence. This was the very reason the European Armoury was begun some years ago. It seemed to me that it would be helpful to have a centralized forum which could focus on the study of the weapon forms which influenced and often provided components in many ethnographic forms. Obviously, in many cases it was difficult to determine which category certain anomalies might be better placed in , and the concept of cross referencing has worked effectively in many instances. I believe most of the unfortunate misunderstanding in this thread developed from a suggestion that this protocol might have served to facilitate it better which was mistaken in meaning. The point that you make noting that if these weapons were placed in both forums, we would have had the benefit of both considerable fields of knowledge........a most salient point! The idea that yataghans should be placed in the European section was of course seemingly preposterous, and the rather uncommonly held idea of Greece and Balkans being part of Europe despite being tenuously true revealed interesting perspective to this dilemma. As well noted by Ibrahiim, the concept of Europe geographically is in many cases to do with perception and these regions of the Balkans, Greece and even Russia are considered peripheral parts of Europe. I would offer cases where yataghans could very well fall into the more stringent European category, and those would primarily have to do with auxiliary units in the armies of European countries using ethnic groups from the Balkans, based often on the Pandour units of the 18th century. There are a good number of examples of these types of yataghans made for European officers, and I have seen them even with European cyphers and motif on the blades.

2nd May 2014, 04:37 PM	#6
Oliver Pinchot Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 462	Many thanks are due to Skarts for bringing this yatagan and pistol to our attention. The fact that they are well-provenanced is very helpful in studying the forms and decoration found on Greek and Ottoman weapons. The level of workmanship is substantially above average. The stand of arms depicted on the breech plate is more or less typical of Ottoman motifs, however the human and animal figures on the counterplate are uncommon. The depiction of Christ Crowned on the triggerguard is exceptional. Again, thanks to Skarts for providing these intriguing examples. Oliver Pinchot

3rd May 2014, 11:38 PM	#9
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	Now that we have mirrored this thread over from the ethnographic forum, to run concurrently we are hoping that the topic of these Cretan weapons might stir some interest here as well . The fact that these are peripherally European weapons as well as being part of the ethnographic sphere suggests that perhaps dual classification might bring more response . We are hoping that other Cretan weapons might be entered here for comparison, while we look at the distinct features found on them .

5th May 2014, 02:53 PM	#11
Marcus den toom Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: Netherlands Posts: 534	A interesting pistol indeed, mainly because of the family history which allows us to date it. Without this information i would have guessed that this piece, eventhough the iron/silver (?) work is well made, is not older than 50+ years or so . There is a rather lively market for pistols when offered to tourist and you see these products more than often. This pistol however has quite a lot of original parts, like the lock, counterplate, screws etc. A better picture would be helpfull to determine if the stock and barrel are original to the complete piece as well (not trying to contradict the family history) since caution is even more important on these guns I also want to point out that a close examination of the brass butstock end cap would be enlightening. The form is strange to me

14th May 2014, 02:13 PM	#12
Skarts_ss Member Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 47	Guys!!!Now i saw all these....sorry about not sending more pics. I think that the pistol is European and was sold in Crete during the revolutionary years. I have seen in other collections different pistols of Cretan origin that look like Ottoman to me...to tell the truth i have seen many weapons of different origins here in Crete. Thats why i posted these weapons, in order to find out the exact origin.

15th May 2014, 04:15 PM	#14
batjka Member Join Date: Mar 2014 Posts: 39	I would NOT want to mess with this guy. Thanks for sharing.