A cup hilt sword for coments.

Jim McDougall · 30th April 2014, 06:02 PM

Hi Mark,
I missed your response, thank you so much for the kind words as always. I do recall those espadas we identified as Brazilian, and were of course probably much wider used throughout the 'Spanish Main' of the 19th c.
That was really quite a breakthrough as we had little knowledge on Spanish colonial edged weapons outside those in Mexico and the Southwest.

Interesting on these cuphilts and reading some discussion on another forum, how incredibly little these are known at large. Aside from one writer based in Spain and a brilliant arms scholar, other notes were pretty void .

I like the fact that here we are able to stay with a topic and pursue more data and examples with the goal of actually learning the history of these arms. It seems others just want a label, or wording to sell things.

I always hope more will come in on these, I really do believe these were of the same location and perhaps even workshop.

M ELEY · 1st May 2014, 10:10 AM

Absolutely agree to generic labeling of pieces these days, Jim. The importance of pinpointing not only adds to our knowledge, but for those that enjoy the fine details, helps us appreciate the history behind it. I have found this fact particularly with naval weapons. Many weapons that went to sea were not documented and must be labeled 'associated'. That being said, some collectors shy away from anything but weapons with absolute exacting proof of such (anchor designs, rack numbers, axe patterns used by naval) while ignoring other pieces that very likely were nautical examples, but need more research to pin them down. Sorry to divert from the sword at hand, but I think the point is this form of sword differs from its cousins for a reason and hopefully, we'll crack its code someday!

fernando · 1st May 2014, 02:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M ELEY

... That being said, some collectors shy away from anything but weapons with absolute exacting proof ...

Touché Capitão ... naval or not naval. Within such concept you have 'restricted' or 'vague' labels, like a sword of the Peninsular War or a spontoon of the American Revolution.
But you will have to recognize that a weapon full of marks and dates scores a better position in the rank of preferences; not including those which are so undoubtedly identifiable that one looks 'instead' for their perservation condition.
These two swords bear symptoms of having being in the same location (colony) and potentialy made (read hilted or even rehilted) by the same guild or even the same artisan. Their life path may (read must) have however been a different one.
My sword was in Spain when i acquired it; Dana's example was in Great Britain.
My sword has a traditional Spaniosh blade with the inscription; Dana's example is a plain rapier type one.
With these ingredients, missing precise data and giving wings to imagination,
one could design here two rather different stories.
My sword could have gone from Spain to the Colonies, be rehilted by a local smith as an added (or souvenir) value to its (Spanish) owner and return to the main land, later ending in the hands of a familiar who later sold it or gave it way.
Danas's example could have been hilted or re-hilted in the same spot but remained there, as a local field/ornament weapon, later brought to Britain for whatever reason, including commercial purposes.
Now ... how's that for an approach ?

Let me tell you guys that, nobody in the world is more zealous enthusiast of a piece's precise provenance than me ... for one

Jim McDougall · 1st May 2014, 03:58 PM

Nando, I should have more carefully worded my comment to note 'we' meaning most of us here on these forums, it sounded like I meant just Mark and myself

oops! Quite true.......you're a super sleuth when it comes to provenance and studying developed history on these arms!!
I know...you and I have been at it for how many years now!!! ???

It is true, an item that has established pedigree in provenance, or that is well marked and referenced certainly does excel in historic value .

Thank you for reiterating the comparative differences between these two examples, which clearly were taken on different courses after leaving their original point of fabrication. Nicely summarized!!

Mark, you're spot on with your notes on the variations and undocumented instances of arms 'probably' used in maritime circumstances. We well know that to be the case on 'pirate' vessels, and do you recall our push to discover how likely it was that Scottish (and other) basket hilts were used at sea? I believe years ago Dr. Mazansky did an x-ray study on a basket hilt of late 16th century from an English shipwreck off Bermuda (part of the source material for Shakespeare's "The Tempest" if I recall) .

All the best,
Jim

fernando · 1st May 2014, 04:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

......you're a super sleuth when it comes to provenance and studying developed history on these arms!!...

Ah ... sleuth, a term i would never dreamed of

.
Nothing like being here to improve one's english ... like stalwart and so

.
But ... let's hear what the Capitão has to say about my fantasies

Jim McDougall · 1st May 2014, 10:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Ah ... sleuth, a term i would never dreamed of

.
Nothing like being here to improve one's english ... like stalwart and so

.
But ... let's hear what the Capitão has to say about my fantasies

kinky!!!

M ELEY · 2nd May 2014, 10:46 AM

Fernando- I see your point, my friend, and certainly don't deny that a piece with provenance or a well-documented artifact always wins out. My point was simply that today's questioned piece, that might be either overlooked or even scoffed at by purists, might very well prove to be tomorrow's treasures! The story lies in the details, no doubt, and that is also where the excitement (or eternal frustration!) lies. Ultimately, one will either like the piece for what it is or not. Purists might shy away from anything but the classic Spanish/Portuguese/Italian cuphilt. Others may revel in the fascination with colonial pieces, such as the Caribbean cup-hilts. I tend to judge pieces these days based on whether I like them or not. If they don't feel right, I part with them-

Anyway, still fascinated with both swords and their possible connection.

Jim, you have peaked my interests again in baskethilts. I've always wanted one for my collection, but could never justify such a piece in a naval collection. Your lead (which I hope to follow up on, once I get a day off!!) gives me hope again! I think Annis mentions at least one basket in his book with an association with the sea. Got to look over my notes again!

30th April 2014, 06:02 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,597	Hi Mark, I missed your response, thank you so much for the kind words as always. I do recall those espadas we identified as Brazilian, and were of course probably much wider used throughout the 'Spanish Main' of the 19th c. That was really quite a breakthrough as we had little knowledge on Spanish colonial edged weapons outside those in Mexico and the Southwest. Interesting on these cuphilts and reading some discussion on another forum, how incredibly little these are known at large. Aside from one writer based in Spain and a brilliant arms scholar, other notes were pretty void . I like the fact that here we are able to stay with a topic and pursue more data and examples with the goal of actually learning the history of these arms. It seems others just want a label, or wording to sell things. I always hope more will come in on these, I really do believe these were of the same location and perhaps even workshop.

1st May 2014, 10:10 AM	#2
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,196	Absolutely agree to generic labeling of pieces these days, Jim. The importance of pinpointing not only adds to our knowledge, but for those that enjoy the fine details, helps us appreciate the history behind it. I have found this fact particularly with naval weapons. Many weapons that went to sea were not documented and must be labeled 'associated'. That being said, some collectors shy away from anything but weapons with absolute exacting proof of such (anchor designs, rack numbers, axe patterns used by naval) while ignoring other pieces that very likely were nautical examples, but need more research to pin them down. Sorry to divert from the sword at hand, but I think the point is this form of sword differs from its cousins for a reason and hopefully, we'll crack its code someday!

1st May 2014, 03:58 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,597	Nando, I should have more carefully worded my comment to note 'we' meaning most of us here on these forums, it sounded like I meant just Mark and myself oops! Quite true.......you're a super sleuth when it comes to provenance and studying developed history on these arms!! I know...you and I have been at it for how many years now!!! ??? It is true, an item that has established pedigree in provenance, or that is well marked and referenced certainly does excel in historic value . Thank you for reiterating the comparative differences between these two examples, which clearly were taken on different courses after leaving their original point of fabrication. Nicely summarized!! Mark, you're spot on with your notes on the variations and undocumented instances of arms 'probably' used in maritime circumstances. We well know that to be the case on 'pirate' vessels, and do you recall our push to discover how likely it was that Scottish (and other) basket hilts were used at sea? I believe years ago Dr. Mazansky did an x-ray study on a basket hilt of late 16th century from an English shipwreck off Bermuda (part of the source material for Shakespeare's "The Tempest" if I recall) . All the best, Jim

2nd May 2014, 10:46 AM	#7
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,196	Fernando- I see your point, my friend, and certainly don't deny that a piece with provenance or a well-documented artifact always wins out. My point was simply that today's questioned piece, that might be either overlooked or even scoffed at by purists, might very well prove to be tomorrow's treasures! The story lies in the details, no doubt, and that is also where the excitement (or eternal frustration!) lies. Ultimately, one will either like the piece for what it is or not. Purists might shy away from anything but the classic Spanish/Portuguese/Italian cuphilt. Others may revel in the fascination with colonial pieces, such as the Caribbean cup-hilts. I tend to judge pieces these days based on whether I like them or not. If they don't feel right, I part with them- Anyway, still fascinated with both swords and their possible connection. Jim, you have peaked my interests again in baskethilts. I've always wanted one for my collection, but could never justify such a piece in a naval collection. Your lead (which I hope to follow up on, once I get a day off!!) gives me hope again! I think Annis mentions at least one basket in his book with an association with the sea. Got to look over my notes again!