A cup hilt sword for coments.

fernando · 16th April 2014, 03:40 PM

Thank you Dana.
I bet Jim will enjoy dissecting your sword historic provenance possibilities.
Mine was bought in a Spanish antique weapons site. But you know, this is a small world and things (swords) jump from one place to another with amazing facility.
I will be expecting further pictures and measurements of your piece.

dana_w · 16th April 2014, 04:42 PM

Here are the measurements, they are all approximate.

Blade length: 32 inches || 81.28 cm
Blade thickness at forte: 3/16 inches || .476 cm
Blade with at forte: 1 3/8 inches || 3.492 cm
Quillons extension: 3 1/8 inches || 7.937 cm
Cup width: 5 3/8 inches || 13.652 cm
Total length: 38 1/2 inches || 97.79 cm
Ponit of balance: about an inch from the bottom of the cup
Weight: 3 lb, 2 1/4 oz || 1.424 kg4

The cup seem to be made of iron with silver decorations.

Jim McDougall · 16th April 2014, 04:47 PM

Thank you for posting this Dana!!! It is really exciting to see another of these, and I also look forward to further details when you receive this.
As you know Fernando and I are obsessive on cuphilts

and Cap'n Mark will be coming in as well I'm sure as soon as he gets back into port.

What is great is to see another of these curious grip types, and I will begin excavations here in the bookmobile to relocate notes etc. Here these kinds of anomalies and arms mysteries the case files are never closed...just pending.....and it really works when enthusiasts like yourself bring forth new examples and evidence. I cannot thank you enough!!!

All the very best,
Jim

dana_w · 17th April 2014, 12:10 AM

Here is one more photo. You can see how the silver is wrapped over the lip of the cup, and where some of it is missing on the left side of the photo.

fernando · 17th April 2014, 05:09 PM

Beautiful sword indeed, Dana
I am surprised with one detail ... which links to another.
Its weight is rather significant; 55% heavier than mine. Which is quite impressive, given that the overall dimensions of both are equivalent. Even your blade doesn't appear to be thicker than mine, although of a different profile. On the other hand the point of balance of yours is rather close from the guard; mine is almost 3 1/2" from the cup bottom.
We then may conclude that the cup of your sword is 'extremely' heavy, right ?
Maybe due to the bowl being made with (much) thicker iron plate, together with the weight of the multiple adornments ?
Can you check the blade ricasso inside the bowl and see if it is adorned ...something like mine, which has a brass decorated 'ferrule' ? This could indicate further familiarity in the smith style, due to being an uncommon procedure.

.

dana_w · 17th April 2014, 05:52 PM

You are right Fernando, the cup of this sword is 'extremely' heavy when compared to others in my collection. It is due to the thicker iron plate.

The ricasso inside the bowl is unadorned. It looks like a piece of iron split at the base to accept the actual sword blade. I will lighten one of the images so you can see it better. It is not pretty.

Jim McDougall · 17th April 2014, 08:03 PM

In retracing material on Fernando's sword and this exciting newly added example, I agree that the compelling similarity in style and execution of decorative motif suggests these were likely from the same workshop or location. The information suggesting the associations to the Haitian Rebellion 1791-1804 truly brings remarkable plausibility to the unique nature of these swords which seem clearly outside the typical Spanish colonial versions of the well known Spanish cuphilt.

As indicated in my research from 2011, this curious rayskin like grip material appears it may follow the Galluchat method of imitation rayskin. This being of course a French oriented process, apparently popularized in the latter 18th century, it seems likely that artisans familiar with this may well have been present in these French colonial regions.

These two examples, while crudely executed ,display the unique charm of these colonial weapons which reflect fascinating historical perspective. It seems that these are essentially 'blacksmith' grade work, but again reflecting considerable skill, and attention to details imitating the motif and forms of the period.
In your example Dana, the crudely fashioned (thus very heavy) bowl is embellished on the outside with interestingly applied fretwork, which seems intended to approximate the beautifully pierced bowls of Brescian cuphilts used by Spanish nobility of the 17th into 18th century. The scallop shell is of course well known in Spanish motif and here in rococo setting as with the smallswords of French 18th century.

It would seem that these rather ersatz appearing, roughly fabricated swords were quite likely fashioned for individuals involved in these events unfolding in Haitian regions around 1791 and probably meant for officers or those in leadership roles. While the direct association to Georges Biassou is of course interesting, though tenuous, it does seem that these two cuphilts might have been fashioned for individuals of standing in these events.

As to provenance, it does seem quite probable that the St. Augustine attribution would be likely, and Florida itself provided an outstanding source for many years for these kinds of amazingly historical arms. I well remember the Hoffman's and Norm Flayderman from the 1960s and 70s who were the primary purveyors of the times, and their catalogs still stand as key references and sources for wistful memories of those times !

I would consider that these two examples were probably fashioned by artisan (s) in Haitian regions who were probably slaves, or associated, and had acquired skills exposed to French tutelage. These swords were probably fashioned in accord with Spanish colonial influences, and around 1790-91 as discussed. It may even be considered that the interesting devices attached to the grips might be associated with the talismans and symbols associated with Vodun or West African folk religion.

dana_w · 17th April 2014, 08:20 PM

Thanks so much for your comments Jim!

I don't know how much credence to given to the Haitian Rebellion story, much less the association with Georges Biassou. Right now it is just an interesting anecdotal story with no supporting evidence.

I checked my notes and the gentleman who claims to have once own my sword says he purchased it from Andrew Bottomley (UK), and that it can be found in one of his mail order catalogs from the late 90s or early 2000s. I haven't manage to get my hands on the old catalogs to check. Hopefully more provenance information may be found there so I am trying.

16th April 2014, 04:42 PM	#2
dana_w Member Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: Southeast Florida, USA Posts: 436	Here are the measurements, they are all approximate. Blade length: 32 inches \|\| 81.28 cm Blade thickness at forte: 3/16 inches \|\| .476 cm Blade with at forte: 1 3/8 inches \|\| 3.492 cm Quillons extension: 3 1/8 inches \|\| 7.937 cm Cup width: 5 3/8 inches \|\| 13.652 cm Total length: 38 1/2 inches \|\| 97.79 cm Ponit of balance: about an inch from the bottom of the cup Weight: 3 lb, 2 1/4 oz \|\| 1.424 kg4 The cup seem to be made of iron with silver decorations. Attached Images

17th April 2014, 12:10 AM	#4
dana_w Member Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: Southeast Florida, USA Posts: 436	Here is one more photo. You can see how the silver is wrapped over the lip of the cup, and where some of it is missing on the left side of the photo. Attached Images

17th April 2014, 05:09 PM	#5
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Beautiful sword indeed, Dana I am surprised with one detail ... which links to another. Its weight is rather significant; 55% heavier than mine. Which is quite impressive, given that the overall dimensions of both are equivalent. Even your blade doesn't appear to be thicker than mine, although of a different profile. On the other hand the point of balance of yours is rather close from the guard; mine is almost 3 1/2" from the cup bottom. We then may conclude that the cup of your sword is 'extremely' heavy, right ? Maybe due to the bowl being made with (much) thicker iron plate, together with the weight of the multiple adornments ? Can you check the blade ricasso inside the bowl and see if it is adorned ...something like mine, which has a brass decorated 'ferrule' ? This could indicate further familiarity in the smith style, due to being an uncommon procedure. . Attached Images

17th April 2014, 05:52 PM	#6
dana_w Member Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: Southeast Florida, USA Posts: 436	You are right Fernando, the cup of this sword is 'extremely' heavy when compared to others in my collection. It is due to the thicker iron plate. The ricasso inside the bowl is unadorned. It looks like a piece of iron split at the base to accept the actual sword blade. I will lighten one of the images so you can see it better. It is not pretty. Attached Images

16th April 2014, 03:40 PM	#1
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Thank you Dana. I bet Jim will enjoy dissecting your sword historic provenance possibilities. Mine was bought in a Spanish antique weapons site. But you know, this is a small world and things (swords) jump from one place to another with amazing facility. I will be expecting further pictures and measurements of your piece.

16th April 2014, 04:47 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,295	Thank you for posting this Dana!!! It is really exciting to see another of these, and I also look forward to further details when you receive this. As you know Fernando and I are obsessive on cuphilts and Cap'n Mark will be coming in as well I'm sure as soon as he gets back into port. What is great is to see another of these curious grip types, and I will begin excavations here in the bookmobile to relocate notes etc. Here these kinds of anomalies and arms mysteries the case files are never closed...just pending.....and it really works when enthusiasts like yourself bring forth new examples and evidence. I cannot thank you enough!!! All the very best, Jim

17th April 2014, 08:03 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,295	In retracing material on Fernando's sword and this exciting newly added example, I agree that the compelling similarity in style and execution of decorative motif suggests these were likely from the same workshop or location. The information suggesting the associations to the Haitian Rebellion 1791-1804 truly brings remarkable plausibility to the unique nature of these swords which seem clearly outside the typical Spanish colonial versions of the well known Spanish cuphilt. As indicated in my research from 2011, this curious rayskin like grip material appears it may follow the Galluchat method of imitation rayskin. This being of course a French oriented process, apparently popularized in the latter 18th century, it seems likely that artisans familiar with this may well have been present in these French colonial regions. These two examples, while crudely executed ,display the unique charm of these colonial weapons which reflect fascinating historical perspective. It seems that these are essentially 'blacksmith' grade work, but again reflecting considerable skill, and attention to details imitating the motif and forms of the period. In your example Dana, the crudely fashioned (thus very heavy) bowl is embellished on the outside with interestingly applied fretwork, which seems intended to approximate the beautifully pierced bowls of Brescian cuphilts used by Spanish nobility of the 17th into 18th century. The scallop shell is of course well known in Spanish motif and here in rococo setting as with the smallswords of French 18th century. It would seem that these rather ersatz appearing, roughly fabricated swords were quite likely fashioned for individuals involved in these events unfolding in Haitian regions around 1791 and probably meant for officers or those in leadership roles. While the direct association to Georges Biassou is of course interesting, though tenuous, it does seem that these two cuphilts might have been fashioned for individuals of standing in these events. As to provenance, it does seem quite probable that the St. Augustine attribution would be likely, and Florida itself provided an outstanding source for many years for these kinds of amazingly historical arms. I well remember the Hoffman's and Norm Flayderman from the 1960s and 70s who were the primary purveyors of the times, and their catalogs still stand as key references and sources for wistful memories of those times ! I would consider that these two examples were probably fashioned by artisan (s) in Haitian regions who were probably slaves, or associated, and had acquired skills exposed to French tutelage. These swords were probably fashioned in accord with Spanish colonial influences, and around 1790-91 as discussed. It may even be considered that the interesting devices attached to the grips might be associated with the talismans and symbols associated with Vodun or West African folk religion.

17th April 2014, 08:20 PM	#8
dana_w Member Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: Southeast Florida, USA Posts: 436	Thanks so much for your comments Jim! I don't know how much credence to given to the Haitian Rebellion story, much less the association with Georges Biassou. Right now it is just an interesting anecdotal story with no supporting evidence. I checked my notes and the gentleman who claims to have once own my sword says he purchased it from Andrew Bottomley (UK), and that it can be found in one of his mail order catalogs from the late 90s or early 2000s. I haven't manage to get my hands on the old catalogs to check. Hopefully more provenance information may be found there so I am trying.