US Ban in Ivory - Not all bad news

CharlesS · 8th April 2014, 05:20 PM

I am sending Robert the latest news I could acquire on the new ivory bans, including CITIES and ESA language.

I am very disheartened by it all, for precisely the same reasons many of you have mentioned.

There are several blogs on the net that indicate there will be some push back on this and apparently there is an big meeting on the issues of the ban later in April with many detractors expected to be in attendance. Keep in mind we are only a small part of the collecting and antique community concerned. We ARE NOT ALONE!

I am assuming Robert will add the info onto the 'sticky' regarding the new ivory ban. The file will not attach here.

Richard G · 9th April 2014, 02:54 PM

It does get worse.
See http://assembly.state.ny.us/leg/?def...tions=Y&Text=Y
This seems to ban not only the import, export, buying and selling in NY State of ALL ivory (i.e including marine and mammoth ivory etc.) but also it's "distribution" which presumably means you cannot even give it away.
I hate to say it, but I think we should all prepare ourselves for the day when ownership of unlicensed ivory or other CITES type products becomes illegal, and of course licensing will be made damn near impossible. I don't expect it will be banned completely tho', the licensing officers would object to that.
Regretfully
Richard

spiral · 10th April 2014, 06:30 PM

Doesn't look good.

Spiral

VANDOO · 10th April 2014, 10:44 PM

WHAT WOULD BE THE USE OF PAYING THE FEES AND DOING THE PAPERWORK ON IVORY IF YOU STILL COULD NOT SELL IT OR WILL IT TO YOUR FAMILY TO SELL. TO DO SO WOULD ONLY GIVE THE ATHORITYS MONEY AND A GOOD LIST OF WHAT YOU HAD AND ITS PRICE AND ALL OTHER INFORMATION. THEN WHEN YOU DIE IT CAN ALL BE CONFISCATED OR MORE FEES CHARGED TO THE FAMILY. THIS DOES THE ELEPHANTS LITTLE GOOD BUT DOES REMOVE VALUABLE ART AND MONEY FROM COLLECTORS AND I AM SURE SOMEONE WILL PROFIT FROM IT. TO STEAL (CONFISCATE) LEGALLY IS STILL STEALING.

CharlesS · 10th April 2014, 11:13 PM

Well, whether you like them or not, the NRA's Institute for Legislative Action is in on this now, and very much against the ban.

I think it is well known that they carry some sway in Congress.

http://www.nraila.org/news-issues/fa...act-sheet.aspx

A. G. Maisey · 11th April 2014, 06:15 AM

There is one thing that history demonstrates to be unarguably true:-

when anything is banned by law or authority it becomes desirable and the price rises accordingly

Possibly the most prominent example of the truth of this dictum is alcohol prohibition in the USA of 80 or so years ago, but numerous other examples can be found without too much effort.

In respect of ivory, in Indonesia during the 1970's and some of the 1980's ivory keris hilts were not inevitably more expensive than wooden keris hilts. The factors that did inevitably increase price were quality of workmanship and rarity of form. This meant that wooden keris hilts of excellent quality or rare form were always more expensive than common or run-of-the-mill ivory hilts.

Since the bans on trade in ivory have come into force the value of ivory keris hilts has risen to what many would regard as an unreasonable level, but the fact remains that hilts are highly sought after at these seemingly unreasonable prices.

If this proposed legislation against sale/exchange/possession of ivory does come into force in the USA it will have one very predictable effect:-

the value of ivory on the black market will rise to highly unreasonable levels

Collectors will still collect it, people wanting to sell will still sell it, but because of the attendant risk, prices will rise.

As for the unfortunate business of the possible illegal possession of ethnographic and/or historic artifacts, the same will apply.

If any serious moves were to be made in this particular area, the place to start is with public collections, and on a world basis, perhaps the Elgin Marbles might be the lynch pin that needs to removed in order to give legitimacy to this philosophy of "return to source".

8th April 2014, 05:20 PM	#1
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,854	I am sending Robert the latest news I could acquire on the new ivory bans, including CITIES and ESA language. I am very disheartened by it all, for precisely the same reasons many of you have mentioned. There are several blogs on the net that indicate there will be some push back on this and apparently there is an big meeting on the issues of the ban later in April with many detractors expected to be in attendance. Keep in mind we are only a small part of the collecting and antique community concerned. We ARE NOT ALONE! I am assuming Robert will add the info onto the 'sticky' regarding the new ivory ban. The file will not attach here. Last edited by CharlesS; 8th April 2014 at 05:31 PM.

9th April 2014, 02:54 PM	#2
Richard G Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 411	It does get worse. See http://assembly.state.ny.us/leg/?def...tions=Y&Text=Y This seems to ban not only the import, export, buying and selling in NY State of ALL ivory (i.e including marine and mammoth ivory etc.) but also it's "distribution" which presumably means you cannot even give it away. I hate to say it, but I think we should all prepare ourselves for the day when ownership of unlicensed ivory or other CITES type products becomes illegal, and of course licensing will be made damn near impossible. I don't expect it will be banned completely tho', the licensing officers would object to that. Regretfully Richard

10th April 2014, 06:30 PM	#3
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	Doesn't look good. Spiral

10th April 2014, 10:44 PM	#4
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	WHAT WOULD BE THE USE OF PAYING THE FEES AND DOING THE PAPERWORK ON IVORY IF YOU STILL COULD NOT SELL IT OR WILL IT TO YOUR FAMILY TO SELL. TO DO SO WOULD ONLY GIVE THE ATHORITYS MONEY AND A GOOD LIST OF WHAT YOU HAD AND ITS PRICE AND ALL OTHER INFORMATION. THEN WHEN YOU DIE IT CAN ALL BE CONFISCATED OR MORE FEES CHARGED TO THE FAMILY. THIS DOES THE ELEPHANTS LITTLE GOOD BUT DOES REMOVE VALUABLE ART AND MONEY FROM COLLECTORS AND I AM SURE SOMEONE WILL PROFIT FROM IT. TO STEAL (CONFISCATE) LEGALLY IS STILL STEALING.

10th April 2014, 11:13 PM	#5
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,854	Well, whether you like them or not, the NRA's Institute for Legislative Action is in on this now, and very much against the ban. I think it is well known that they carry some sway in Congress. http://www.nraila.org/news-issues/fa...act-sheet.aspx

11th April 2014, 06:15 AM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	There is one thing that history demonstrates to be unarguably true:- when anything is banned by law or authority it becomes desirable and the price rises accordingly Possibly the most prominent example of the truth of this dictum is alcohol prohibition in the USA of 80 or so years ago, but numerous other examples can be found without too much effort. In respect of ivory, in Indonesia during the 1970's and some of the 1980's ivory keris hilts were not inevitably more expensive than wooden keris hilts. The factors that did inevitably increase price were quality of workmanship and rarity of form. This meant that wooden keris hilts of excellent quality or rare form were always more expensive than common or run-of-the-mill ivory hilts. Since the bans on trade in ivory have come into force the value of ivory keris hilts has risen to what many would regard as an unreasonable level, but the fact remains that hilts are highly sought after at these seemingly unreasonable prices. If this proposed legislation against sale/exchange/possession of ivory does come into force in the USA it will have one very predictable effect:- the value of ivory on the black market will rise to highly unreasonable levels Collectors will still collect it, people wanting to sell will still sell it, but because of the attendant risk, prices will rise. As for the unfortunate business of the possible illegal possession of ethnographic and/or historic artifacts, the same will apply. If any serious moves were to be made in this particular area, the place to start is with public collections, and on a world basis, perhaps the Elgin Marbles might be the lynch pin that needs to removed in order to give legitimacy to this philosophy of "return to source".