Query on maker's mark

[M ELEY]

Sorry, I'm not savvy enough to attach threads, so I brought it up again. It's the "old Dutch hanger' thread presently presented. The Dutch name for these swords, with their entire hilt being a crouching lion, is unpronouncable by me!! The item you posted seemed to have used the same type grip from one of these swords. Tehn again, perhaps the German creator just liked the form and used it from existing patterns-

[Billman]

This one: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...t=dutch+hanger

It looks like the handle shown on the original (top) image is in two parts - the hilt and the cross part.. Note the arms appear in s different position, but the general appearance is very similar...

[Billman]

Juts did a search for 'leeuwengevesten' on the forum, curiously no hits - so went to Google..... All images are from Cornelius' post (ref above) so no further on, but have found another link: http://www.adviesoudewapens.nl/blankewapens.pdf a downloadable PDF file - fig 26 on page 43 shows a similar hilt.

[cornelistromp]

Dear Bob,

attached a response to your email inquiry.

the stamped mark is not a coq but a king bird, the symbol of the "gunmen" of hand and footbow guilds in Netherlands in the 16th century until now..

the Lionhilt in Dutch leeuwengevest;
the hilt with a grip, molded into the shape of a standing lion( sometimes holding a shield) was very popular in the second half of the 17th century in the Netherlands.
The text on the blade is in German but I strongly suspect that it is a Dutch tool with a (bit later) added German text.
probably a craftsman tool used to form the stock of various weapons for members of a guild.

best,
Jasper

[Billman]

Thanks for that - the tool is most certainly a cooper's knife - 'cochoir' in French (kuipermes??) - the single bevel, the blade shape, the deep fullering are all typical of certain patterns of this tool. Possibly the image of two coopers trussing a cask on the back of the blade are also a bit of a give away...

I have not found any reference to this tool in Holland, but have contacted Eric Waulput who has written a book on cooper's tool (Catalog Kuiper Gereedschaf) for help.

I have just found an image of a similar tool, dated from 1400 to 1500, in the Rotterdam Museum - it is listed as a meat cleaver, but so was the V&A tool, until I told them otherwise...

The Dutch and Belgium billhooks often have a straight blade, and they can be seen in images of carpenter's workshops, so it is likely they were also found in Dutch/Flemish/Belgium cooperages...

Images, below: top the V&A tool, bottom the Rotterdam tool....

[Billman]

The above is the first time I have seen both images together - the Rotterdam tool is most certainly also a cooper's tool...

I would like to see the other side, to see if it is flat or fullered like the V&A tool, and also to see if it has single bevel.

Query, is it really 1400 to 1500 as stated by the museum, or much later, i.e. 200 years, which would make it late 1600 early 1700's?????

[Billman]

Just found another one, sold in Germany as an 18th century Küfermesser,
(i.e. a cooper's knife)...