Old keris Iron Vs modern keris

nechesh · 14th November 2005, 12:49 PM

Well Kiai, in many ways it is a somewhat arbitrary dating on my part. But it is my understanding however that in Bali, for instance, there was not much serious keris making after that war. I would imagine that WWII had a great impact on the region as a whole as well. Though the Puputans definitely signaled an end of an era in Bali at the beginning of the century it is my understanding that a certain amount of cultural rebounding was beginning to take place up until WWII. Whether this applied to the rest of Indonesia i am unsure, but i would think that a world war in your back yard could put quite a damper on things.

Pusaka · 14th November 2005, 07:11 PM

In modern times which keris workers are able to produce a keris using meteorite Iron? I know it is difficult so most keris workers dont have this skill but which ones have.

Kiai Carita · 14th November 2005, 10:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pusaka

In modern times which keris workers are able to produce a keris using meteorite Iron? I know it is difficult so most keris workers dont have this skill but which ones have.

Pusaka, up till WWII people still sold meteorite in the markets of the cities. All keris craftsmen would be able to make keris using meteorite. Making a keris is difficult and even in the modern times most of the technical, material, aspects of keris making are the same as the way the ancient Mpu used to work, the difference being mosty in the spiritual work. I suggest go to Aeng Tong Tong and you will be able to see a village full of keris makers.

Mans, who posts on this forum regularly goes there and knows many of these craftsmen. Some consistently produce good work and do not cut corners and live straight lives and although they are not recognized as Mpu they argueably could be called Mpu just for their service of keeping quality keris making skills alive. The Solo art academy also has people who have interest in making keris. The problem is making keris is a long process and the market is small. You can buy a regular quality old keris for less than the price of a new well made one. Alot of people prefer the old because they think the old has more 'spiritual' powers.

Traditionally you if you go to an Mpu and ask for a keris to be made for you would be asked many things to determine what shape and pamor pattern would be beneficial for you, and when the making should proceed and end, and so on. You could collect meteorite from e-bay and forge it and hammer it clean of impurities...according to Harsrinuksmo's Ensiklopedi Keris, you need between 300-400 grammes of this stuff to make a keris. Then you choose what iron (around 12 - 18 kg depending on the shape of the blade, wavy or straight) and the steel for the centre and sharp edge (around 600 grammes).

As long as you chose a pamor pattern that is categorized as pamor mlumah (lying on it's back) then the difficulties are not that high. If you want a fancy pamor miring (lying on it's side) then it is much more difficult to execute using hammer welding.

By the way, I notice you are cut-and-pasting posts and photos from members of this forum and using the images and member's words in discussion on the martialartsplanet silat forum withough mentioning the source. Is it OK to do this? I am sure there are many keris enthusiasts through silat there that would benefit from joining this knowledgable forum.

Warm salaams to all,
KC

Rick · 14th November 2005, 10:36 PM

I believe all posts on this forum are considered as copyrighted by their individual authors . Permission from each author of a post may need to be secured .

Hopefully Mark or Andrew can address this issue in more detail .

In the meantime Pusaka cease and desist from doing this .
I'll be monitoring the other forum .

Mark · 14th November 2005, 10:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

I believe all posts on this forum are considered as copyrighted by their individual authors . Permission from each author of a post may need to be secured .

Hopefully Mark or Andrew can address this in more detail .

First, this is me saying this as an individual, not as a representative of this forum or its Staff.

It is correct that ownership of the copyright is with the poster/writer. Period. In most cases permission is required for use. On the other hand, there is something called "fair use," which does not require permission, but should include attribution of the source. Plus, its plagarism to try and pass off others' words as your own (an academic no-no, to be sure).

Bottom line -- no one is likely to get sued over it, but in my personal opinion its a pretty uncool thing to do on these kinds of forums.

Now, putting my Moderator hat back on ... let's leave the copyright discussion right here and not start a debate, or heaven forbid a flame war, over the issue (either generally or with regard to this specific case).

Mark

marto suwignyo · 14th November 2005, 11:02 PM

Maybe all keris craftsmen can use meteor material to make keris if they know how to use meteor material.

The truth is that during the last 50 years at least only one keris maker known to use meteor material:- Empu Djeno Harumbrojo.

One other keris maker in Solo make two keris with using pamor material from meteor but that Solo keris maker do not prepare the meteor to be able to use. Somebody not from Indonesia prepare the meteor and give to the Solo keris maker to use for pamor material.

Meteor can be weld if wrap in iron and then weld and wash, but technology with technique that use in Jawa can not make pure meteor pamor material. To make pure pamor material the difficulties very high if the technology to use is the traditional technology of Jawa.

Pusaka · 14th November 2005, 11:47 PM

Empu Djeno Harumbrojo is the only person left in Indonesia who can make a meteorite keris ? Im sure that cant be correct, can it??

marto suwignyo · 15th November 2005, 12:05 AM

Visit Yogya, Solo, Madura and Jawa Timur and try to find somebody else who already use meteor.

Somebody who give gaurantee that he can make keris with meteor material.

nechesh · 15th November 2005, 02:49 AM

Hi Mark. I don't want a to start a debate or a flame war either, but i do think that Pusaka does owns us an explanation. Not only are entire passages lifted from this forum without permission and presented as his own, but then they are combined with his own misguided and false conclusions that are antithetical to the meaning and spirit of the original lifted posts. Mick"s Balinese keris is presented as an example of a keris made from modern steel and pure nickel that is then dyed black. Now you know why i never post examples of my collection on line.

14th November 2005, 10:36 PM	#4
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,339	Copyright I believe all posts on this forum are considered as copyrighted by their individual authors . Permission from each author of a post may need to be secured . Hopefully Mark or Andrew can address this issue in more detail . In the meantime Pusaka cease and desist from doing this . I'll be monitoring the other forum . Last edited by Rick; 14th November 2005 at 10:51 PM.

14th November 2005, 11:02 PM	#6
marto suwignyo Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 52	Maybe all keris craftsmen can use meteor material to make keris if they know how to use meteor material. The truth is that during the last 50 years at least only one keris maker known to use meteor material:- Empu Djeno Harumbrojo. One other keris maker in Solo make two keris with using pamor material from meteor but that Solo keris maker do not prepare the meteor to be able to use. Somebody not from Indonesia prepare the meteor and give to the Solo keris maker to use for pamor material. Meteor can be weld if wrap in iron and then weld and wash, but technology with technique that use in Jawa can not make pure meteor pamor material. To make pure pamor material the difficulties very high if the technology to use is the traditional technology of Jawa. Last edited by marto suwignyo; 15th November 2005 at 12:07 AM.

14th November 2005, 12:49 PM	#1
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Well Kiai, in many ways it is a somewhat arbitrary dating on my part. But it is my understanding however that in Bali, for instance, there was not much serious keris making after that war. I would imagine that WWII had a great impact on the region as a whole as well. Though the Puputans definitely signaled an end of an era in Bali at the beginning of the century it is my understanding that a certain amount of cultural rebounding was beginning to take place up until WWII. Whether this applied to the rest of Indonesia i am unsure, but i would think that a world war in your back yard could put quite a damper on things.

14th November 2005, 07:11 PM	#2
Pusaka Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 341	In modern times which keris workers are able to produce a keris using meteorite Iron? I know it is difficult so most keris workers dont have this skill but which ones have.

14th November 2005, 11:47 PM	#7
Pusaka Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 341	Empu Djeno Harumbrojo is the only person left in Indonesia who can make a meteorite keris ? Im sure that cant be correct, can it??

15th November 2005, 12:05 AM	#8
marto suwignyo Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 52	Visit Yogya, Solo, Madura and Jawa Timur and try to find somebody else who already use meteor. Somebody who give gaurantee that he can make keris with meteor material.

15th November 2005, 02:49 AM	#9
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Hi Mark. I don't want a to start a debate or a flame war either, but i do think that Pusaka does owns us an explanation. Not only are entire passages lifted from this forum without permission and presented as his own, but then they are combined with his own misguided and false conclusions that are antithetical to the meaning and spirit of the original lifted posts. Mick"s Balinese keris is presented as an example of a keris made from modern steel and pure nickel that is then dyed black. Now you know why i never post examples of my collection on line.