The Sinhalese Kastane: Its Development, Decoration and Symbolism

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by David

We have a person from the culture we are discussing come on to say that these creatures are not "deities". Let it go Jim…

Whew!! OK doc!! I'm alright now.......Ok, OK, let it go, let it go!
I'm glad to see the discussion is still going, and as I see various entries I can see just how silly much of it was. What I was trying to do, during my spell, was to illustrate what Prasanna noted quite simply, that the term denoting these mythical entities is different in many cases in Sri Lanka than in other cultural parlances.
The problems of semantics, transliteration and perception of course become issues in studying any facet of one culture by those of another. This is why we have footnotes, qualifying references or simply explanations of alternate views or terms. Actually those practices are unfortunately what often is in place with my 'avalanches'

By this same token, much the same as recognizing that definitions are not necessary applicable in every case (the reason why dictionaries offer multiple meanings) , descriptions of terms and meanings are not always 'cut and dry' particularly with the complexities of deeply subjective material.
With that I would recognize that proper understanding of terms, in the context being observed, is indeed important. This is why as researchers it is important for us to include these disparities in text as part of discussion, which often results in considerably more words. One of the key reasons for disagreements and misunderstandings in these venues is poor wording, lack of qualification or explanatory text, along of course with discourtesy.

I know that in trying to describe many of the figures we have been discussing, I feel very uncomfortable in using descriptions such as 'monster'; 'beast' or 'grotesque' as often used in many descriptions, as these are often seen with pejorative meanings in western culture. In this same manner I know that I try, as clearly has Ibrahiim, to find as proper an unoffensive term as possible to show proper respect in referring to the various elements we are discussing. Thankfully Prasanna has rejoined us to help us with these delicate aspects, for example in properly understanding the term deity, along with his comprehensive overall knowledge of course on these subjects.

What is even better is that Fernando has rejoined us with his extremely valuable knowledge and resources on the Portuguese part in the history of these weapons, not to mention his always brilliant wit which truly helps lighten the admittedly sometimes text laden burden here. With that I would acknowledge Rick's note on that issue, and his concerns on our integrity here due to the 'heavy' demeanor of the thread(s). It is true that many of us here are from different cultures, and certainly all have our own 'styles' and interests. It has always been my position that we should allow patience and understanding to prevail as we interact, as well as observing courtesy and gentlemanly respect toward each other.
A very wise man once said, if you find the style or subject matter of another disturbing or annoying, simply ignore them and avoid the thread and topics.
I am glad this thread has continued, and especially with the outstanding complement of participants now present. While some view the topic as having run its course, I have never seen history of anything as having reached that point, it is very much a living entity, always having more to say.

That is why we are here, and hopefully others sharing these interests will join, and emphatically I will say, all opinions, observations and views are welcome and eagerly accepted.

[David]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

I know that in trying to describe many of the figures we have been discussing, I feel very uncomfortable in using descriptions such as 'monster'; 'beast' or 'grotesque' as often used in many descriptions, as these are often seen with pejorative meanings in western culture.

Jim, i completely agree with your distain for the use of the above terminology and its possible pejorative nature. This is why it is perhaps best to refer to these figures simply as "mythical creature" for that is surely what they are and the terminology should, hopefully, offend no one.
While i agree with you that language is indeed flexible, the word "Deity" refers to the divine no matter how you cut it or which of its multiple meanings we apply. It is from the word "Deus" which quite literally means "god". There is no other way to look at it. Really…
http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/us..._english/deity
I do really hope we can ALL just let this go now as it seems a bit like wagging the dog to me. BTW, it was not your "avalanche of words" that i was referring to in my previous post.

[Jim McDougall]

Thanks David, at last we agree on some stuff!!! and the mythical creature term seems a most applicable one. I recognize the root word from the Latin 'deus' (oh oh, I admit, it was on Wiki and that it does apply to divinity, so the application does become tenuous when applied to the creatures ( in Texas terminology 'critters') which are subordinate or supportive to the properly recognized deities.
Thanks for the note on the avalanches, and I admit I feel a bit sensitive on that..after all I am seldom brief ya think????

[fernando]

Originally Posted by David

... It is from the word "Deus" which quite literally means "god"...

Wait a minute
Deus is precisely how we spell God in portuguese; you could have asked me that one .

Originally Posted by David

BTW, it was not your "avalanche of words" that i was referring to in my previous post.

Jim knows that; but he is a true chevalier

[fernando]

Ah ... cross posts within two minutes flat

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams all ~ An interesting excursion and vignette into the cultural and traditional influence of the Portuguese upon Sri Lanka is nicely outlined at http://www.lusotopie.sciencespoborde...jayasuriya.pdf

Perhaps more to the point...an outline of the Gannoruwa battle in which the Portuguese were routed is at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ki...08-1687%29.jpg and artwork already recorded at forum showing the type of sword is recorded there... Although this is relatively updated artwork it does appear to have been copied from a 1693 book thus may well be accurate and in describing the lodgement of the kings sword "A Kastane" in the national shrine ...after the battle.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Prasanna Weerakkody]

Some additional images with kasthana to add to Ibrahiim's - from Herport 1669 (drummers) and Knox 1681 the Knox illustrations were done by an artist in Europe with instructions from the author so the limitations in the similarity of the Kasthana can be attributed to that; as similar mild omissions are seen in other aspects of the illustration as well, but the lion headed hilt and the typical Kasthana scabbard is distinct in the illustration

regards

Prasanna

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Prasanna Weerakkody

... but the lion headed hilt and the typical Kasthana scabbard is distinct in the illustration ...

But not the lower recurved (fake) quillons

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Prasanna Weerakkody

Some additional images with kasthana to add to Ibrahiim's - from Herport 1669 (drummers) and Knox 1681 the Knox illustrations were done by an artist in Europe with instructions from the author so the limitations in the similarity of the Kasthana can be attributed to that; as similar mild omissions are seen in other aspects of the illustration as well, but the lion headed hilt and the typical Kasthana scabbard is distinct in the illustration

regards

Prasanna

Salaams Prasanna ~ Excellent artwork in support of this entire document. As you point out however this is "directed artwork" but nontheless important since it does show the king with his Kastane and I assume the same weapon that was donated to the shrine. The artwork of similar detail at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ki...08-1687%29.jpg also shows the monumental and ornate "sash" which also appears down the centuries from which the Kastane is hung. It would be interesting to determine at what point or bracket in time the blade of the Kastane changed from straight to curved...and in a previous post you alluded to that phenomena...
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.