CALIVERMAN's Powder Flasks and Their Leather Frogs, Nuremberg, ca. 1580-1620

Matchlock · 10th March 2014, 05:37 PM

And a fine North Italian cuir bouilli flask decorated with characteristic roped Renaissance ornamentation, iron mounts and reverse belt hook, ca. 1560-70.
The specific overall shape follows that of the contemporary side bags (German: Gürteltaschen) that - in an epoch before ca. 1600 when garments did not yet have integral bags - everybody had to wear on the belt to carry coins but also all the other little things of importance, like written documents etc.

m

Marcus den toom · 10th March 2014, 05:49 PM

Was the North Italian cuir bouilli flask for presentation purposes or for a (mostlikely) wealthy person?
Their seems to be some remnants of gilding? And does this flask have a (screw) lid on top? I remember from one of your other threads that this was the case with some of these flasks.

Much appreciated as always

Matchlock · 10th March 2014, 05:59 PM

Hi Marcus,

As the dealer's description does not mention otherwise I assume that what seems to be some gilding actually is a light reflection from the photo session.

Those flasks, like the one in discussion, are indeed characterized by having a number of screws, especially before ca. 1570. The basal plate of the top mount/lid is generally fixed by a transverse screw, as seems to be the case here.

Best,
Michael

Martin Moser · 10th March 2014, 06:11 PM

Very interesting! There is a very similar flask in the Deutsches Ledermuseum. A picture can be found in Rex Lingwood's discussion of cuir bouilli here: http://makersgallery.com/rexlingwood/waterer.html -> download the PDF available there.

Matchlock · 10th March 2014, 09:46 PM

Right,

Here it is, ca. 1560-70.

I also attached another, contemporary sample in a private collection (the belt hook missing from the reverse).

m

Martin Moser · 11th March 2014, 08:36 AM

Excellent details, thanks again, Michael :-)
It looks like the back plate is wood, covered with thin leather - is that correct? Is there also a wooden corpus to the front (the balbous) part? From what I read so far, it would seem that the front is leather alone, treated to be hard enough to not need any wooden or otherwise backing (i.e. cuir bouilli or similar).

Thanks,
Martin

Matchlock · 11th March 2014, 12:22 PM

Hi Martin,

Alas there is none of these Italian flasks in my collection so I cannot tell with certainty whether there is a wooden back plate underneath the hardened leather.

m

Marcus den toom · 11th March 2014, 01:26 PM

Some pictures of similair pieces.
This link is a rich source of powder flask and maybe even more.

http://silverwolf.lviv.ua/forum/view...hp?f=25&t=5212

and this one as well

http://www.pinterest.com/scasocial/as-leatherwork/

http://www.christies.com/lotfinder/a...1-details.aspx

_______________
"Powder-flask
Unknown Artist / Maker
Italy and Balkan
c. 1550- c. 1575 and 19th century
c. 1550- c. 1575 (body)
1800 - 1899 (mounts)
Leather and copper alloy, tooled
Height: 19 cm
Weight: 0.28 kg
Label: '904' Blue-edged label"

http://silverwolf.lviv.ua/forum/view...hp?f=25&t=5212

_____________________
"Powder-flask
Unknown Artist / Maker
Italy
3rd quarter of 16th century
Leather and steel, embossed and tooled
Height: 18.4 cm
Weight: 0.355 kg"

___________________
"Powder-flask
Unknown Artist / Maker
Italy
3rd quarter of 16th century
Leather and steel, embossed and tooled
Height: 18.4 cm
Weight: 0.48 kg"

______________________
"Powder-flask
Unknown Artist / Maker
Italy
3rd quarter of 16th century
Leather and steel, embossed, incised and chiselled
Height: 17.7 cm
Weight: 0.445 kg"

___________________
"Powder-flask
Unknown Artist / Maker
Italy
3rd quarter of 16th century
Leather, steel and gold, embossed, tooled, blued and gilded
Height: 14.6 cm
Weight: 0.2 kg"

____________________
???

10th March 2014, 05:37 PM	#1
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	And a fine North Italian cuir bouilli flask decorated with characteristic roped Renaissance ornamentation, iron mounts and reverse belt hook, ca. 1560-70. The specific overall shape follows that of the contemporary side bags (German: Gürteltaschen) that - in an epoch before ca. 1600 when garments did not yet have integral bags - everybody had to wear on the belt to carry coins but also all the other little things of importance, like written documents etc. m Attached Images

10th March 2014, 09:46 PM	#5
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Right, Here it is, ca. 1560-70. I also attached another, contemporary sample in a private collection (the belt hook missing from the reverse). m Attached Images

10th March 2014, 05:49 PM	#2
Marcus den toom Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: Netherlands Posts: 535	Was the North Italian cuir bouilli flask for presentation purposes or for a (mostlikely) wealthy person? Their seems to be some remnants of gilding? And does this flask have a (screw) lid on top? I remember from one of your other threads that this was the case with some of these flasks. Much appreciated as always

10th March 2014, 05:59 PM	#3
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Hi Marcus, As the dealer's description does not mention otherwise I assume that what seems to be some gilding actually is a light reflection from the photo session. Those flasks, like the one in discussion, are indeed characterized by having a number of screws, especially before ca. 1570. The basal plate of the top mount/lid is generally fixed by a transverse screw, as seems to be the case here. Best, Michael

10th March 2014, 06:11 PM	#4
Martin Moser Member Join Date: Mar 2014 Location: Near Munich, Bavaria, Germany Posts: 12	Very interesting! There is a very similar flask in the Deutsches Ledermuseum. A picture can be found in Rex Lingwood's discussion of cuir bouilli here: http://makersgallery.com/rexlingwood/waterer.html -> download the PDF available there.

11th March 2014, 08:36 AM	#6
Martin Moser Member Join Date: Mar 2014 Location: Near Munich, Bavaria, Germany Posts: 12	Excellent details, thanks again, Michael :-) It looks like the back plate is wood, covered with thin leather - is that correct? Is there also a wooden corpus to the front (the balbous) part? From what I read so far, it would seem that the front is leather alone, treated to be hard enough to not need any wooden or otherwise backing (i.e. cuir bouilli or similar). Thanks, Martin

11th March 2014, 12:22 PM	#7
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Hi Martin, Alas there is none of these Italian flasks in my collection so I cannot tell with certainty whether there is a wooden back plate underneath the hardened leather. m

11th March 2014, 01:26 PM	#8
Marcus den toom Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: Netherlands Posts: 535	Some pictures of similair pieces. This link is a rich source of powder flask and maybe even more. http://silverwolf.lviv.ua/forum/view...hp?f=25&t=5212 and this one as well http://www.pinterest.com/scasocial/as-leatherwork/ http://www.christies.com/lotfinder/a...1-details.aspx _______________ "Powder-flask Unknown Artist / Maker Italy and Balkan c. 1550- c. 1575 and 19th century c. 1550- c. 1575 (body) 1800 - 1899 (mounts) Leather and copper alloy, tooled Height: 19 cm Weight: 0.28 kg Label: '904' Blue-edged label" http://silverwolf.lviv.ua/forum/view...hp?f=25&t=5212 _____________________ "Powder-flask Unknown Artist / Maker Italy 3rd quarter of 16th century Leather and steel, embossed and tooled Height: 18.4 cm Weight: 0.355 kg" ___________________ "Powder-flask Unknown Artist / Maker Italy 3rd quarter of 16th century Leather and steel, embossed and tooled Height: 18.4 cm Weight: 0.48 kg" ______________________ "Powder-flask Unknown Artist / Maker Italy 3rd quarter of 16th century Leather and steel, embossed, incised and chiselled Height: 17.7 cm Weight: 0.445 kg" ___________________ "Powder-flask Unknown Artist / Maker Italy 3rd quarter of 16th century Leather, steel and gold, embossed, tooled, blued and gilded Height: 14.6 cm Weight: 0.2 kg" ____________________ ???