Moro Kris Swords

David · 5th March 2014, 04:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edmos1212

Bottomline for me is that this was made by the moro people from the southern philippines (except for the keris) and is authentic rather than replicas created by other regions and/or countries like china.

Edmos, which blade in your mix are you referring to as the "keris" here that is not made by the Moro people?

Edmos1212 · 5th March 2014, 07:45 AM

The biggest one in the middle, i think. That i did not buy from a moro but in an antique shop in manila. Maybe anyone is familiar with this type of kris/keris.

David · 5th March 2014, 05:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edmos1212

The biggest one in the middle, i think. That i did not buy from a moro but in an antique shop in manila. Maybe anyone is familiar with this type of kris/keris.

Edmos, i could be wrong on this as there are other cultures existing in the Philippines, but i think that was also comes from Moroland.
However, though some may differ, i would not refer to this as a kris. Wavy blades are not a determinant for a kris IMO. Many blades have wavy blades that are not kris or keris and many blades that are kris or keris have straight blades. IMO a kris/keris requires an asymmetric base and particular features such as a gangya/gonjo to be considered as such. I think this form was probably inspired by kris blades, but i would hesitate to call it one.
BTW, though it is a fairly arbitrary distinction, on these forums in regard to keris/kris we have mostly agreed to refer to the Moro version with the spelling "KRIS" and the Indonesian type with the spelling "KERIS" to avoid confusion about which form of these blades we are discussing at any given time. I am not sure that this distinction exists anywhere else in the world, but it's probably good for you to know this to help you communicate more precisely with other members on the subject.

Edmos1212 · 6th March 2014, 06:06 AM

Noted on the keris and kris disctinction david. Just got confused on your assessment of the large sword. Correct me if my understanding is wrong. You are saying that this sword is a moro sword but not a kris? If yes, do you have an idea what this is?

VANDOO · 6th March 2014, 04:22 PM

ITEM #5. THE LARGE SWORD IS FAVORED FOR WEAR AT FESTIVALS AND IN PROCESSIONS IT IS OFTEN REFERRED TO AS A KRIS BUT DOES NOT REALLY QUALIFY AS ONE. IT LACKS ALL THE FILE WORK AND PARTS AT THE FORTE OF THE BLADE. NOTE THAT THE ENDS OF THE SCABBARDS ON THE FIRST TWO SWORDS AND THE LARGE ONE HAVE THE SAME SHAPE THIS IS NOT THE USUAL SHAPE FOR KRIS SCABBARDS BUT IS FOUND ON WHAT IS REFERRED TO AS A SULTANS KRIS. THERE IS A PICTURE OF THIS KRIS ON THE COVER OF ROBERT CATO'S BOOK ON KRIS. THE KERIS IS PICTURED ON PAGE 85 AND SAID TO BE EARLY 20 TH. CENTURY. THE BLADES ON YOUR FIRST TWO ARE PROPER KRIS BLADES OF THE OLDER STYLE, THE LONG ONE THOUGH WAVEY IS NOT A PROPER KRIS BLADE , AT LEAST NOT TO US OLDER COLLECTORS

BUT IT IS ETHINOGRAPHIC AND STILL IN USE IN THE SOCIETY THOUGH TOURISTS DO BUY THEM AS WELL.
ITEM #4 APPEARS TO BE CLOSER TO A KERIS ,INDONESIAN THAN TRADITIONAL MORO. THE HANDLE VERY KERIS LIKE AND THE FERRULE MORE LIKE THAT FOUND ON THE MORE RECENT GUNONG DAGGERS. IT MAKES ONE WONDER IF THIS SORT OF FERRULE WAS NOT DEVELOPED FOR THE GUNONG BASED ON THE MEDAK AND SELUT FOUND ON INDONESIAN KERIS. THE SCABBARD IS VERY CLOSE TO THE INDONESIAN KERIS RATHER THAN TRADITIONAL MORO FORM. THE BLADE IS MORO FORM.
ITEM #6 THE TIP OF THE SCABBARD IS OPEN WORK CARVED IN A FASHON I HAVE SEEN IN LOMBOK AND BALI.
THE OLDER BLADES WERE FORGED WITH WAVES OFTEN THE NEWER ONES ARE MADE FROM MONO STEEL AND THE BLADE SHAPED WITH GRINDERS HENCE THE THINNER BLADES AND SHARP POINTED LUKS.

THE LOCAL PRODUCTION SEEMS TO BE INFLUENCED FROM OUTSIDE CULTURES WHICH IS TO BE EXPECTED AS VERY FEW PEOPLES ARE ISOLATED IN TODAYS WORLD AND OLD TRADITIONS ARE NOT AS STRONG SO INOVATIONS ARE NO LONGER HELD BACK. A WORLD OF RAPID CHANGE EVEN IN MINDANAO.

David · 6th March 2014, 05:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VANDOO

ITEM #4 APPEARS TO BE CLOSER TO A KERIS ,INDONESIAN THAN TRADITIONAL MORO. THE HANDLE VERY KERIS LIKE AND THE FERRULE MORE LIKE THAT FOUND ON THE MORE RECENT GUNONG DAGGERS. IT MAKES ONE WONDER IF THIS SORT OF FERRULE WAS NOT DEVELOPED FOR THE GUNONG BASED ON THE MEDAK AND SELUT FOUND ON INDONESIAN KERIS. THE SCABBARD IS VERY CLOSE TO THE INDONESIAN KERIS RATHER THAN TRADITIONAL MORO FORM. THE BLADE IS MORO FORM.
ITEM #6 THE TIP OF THE SCABBARD IS OPEN WORK CARVED IN A FASHON I HAVE SEEN IN LOMBOK AND BALI.

Barry, i assume that you are using the first image for your counting and going top to bottom.
If that is the case, the style of #4 is one i have seen many times from the Philippines and i don't see that much Indonesian in it. This hilt form has some precedent in Moro blades AFAIK. Of course it is fair to say that everything about the Moro kris is influenced by the Indonesian keris is some way, but i wouldn't necessarily identify this style as being closer to the Indo keris.
Because i am afraid Edmos might get the wrong idea from what you are saying about influences i will reiterate that none of these blades originated in Indonesia.
I would have to see closer, more detailed shots of the two kris to the left of the second photo before committing to them being older blades. They very possibly are, but the photos just aren't clear enough.

5th March 2014, 07:45 AM	#2
Edmos1212 Member Join Date: Mar 2014 Posts: 23	The biggest one in the middle, i think. That i did not buy from a moro but in an antique shop in manila. Maybe anyone is familiar with this type of kris/keris.

6th March 2014, 06:06 AM	#4
Edmos1212 Member Join Date: Mar 2014 Posts: 23	Noted on the keris and kris disctinction david. Just got confused on your assessment of the large sword. Correct me if my understanding is wrong. You are saying that this sword is a moro sword but not a kris? If yes, do you have an idea what this is?

6th March 2014, 04:22 PM	#5
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	ITEM #5. THE LARGE SWORD IS FAVORED FOR WEAR AT FESTIVALS AND IN PROCESSIONS IT IS OFTEN REFERRED TO AS A KRIS BUT DOES NOT REALLY QUALIFY AS ONE. IT LACKS ALL THE FILE WORK AND PARTS AT THE FORTE OF THE BLADE. NOTE THAT THE ENDS OF THE SCABBARDS ON THE FIRST TWO SWORDS AND THE LARGE ONE HAVE THE SAME SHAPE THIS IS NOT THE USUAL SHAPE FOR KRIS SCABBARDS BUT IS FOUND ON WHAT IS REFERRED TO AS A SULTANS KRIS. THERE IS A PICTURE OF THIS KRIS ON THE COVER OF ROBERT CATO'S BOOK ON KRIS. THE KERIS IS PICTURED ON PAGE 85 AND SAID TO BE EARLY 20 TH. CENTURY. THE BLADES ON YOUR FIRST TWO ARE PROPER KRIS BLADES OF THE OLDER STYLE, THE LONG ONE THOUGH WAVEY IS NOT A PROPER KRIS BLADE , AT LEAST NOT TO US OLDER COLLECTORS BUT IT IS ETHINOGRAPHIC AND STILL IN USE IN THE SOCIETY THOUGH TOURISTS DO BUY THEM AS WELL. ITEM #4 APPEARS TO BE CLOSER TO A KERIS ,INDONESIAN THAN TRADITIONAL MORO. THE HANDLE VERY KERIS LIKE AND THE FERRULE MORE LIKE THAT FOUND ON THE MORE RECENT GUNONG DAGGERS. IT MAKES ONE WONDER IF THIS SORT OF FERRULE WAS NOT DEVELOPED FOR THE GUNONG BASED ON THE MEDAK AND SELUT FOUND ON INDONESIAN KERIS. THE SCABBARD IS VERY CLOSE TO THE INDONESIAN KERIS RATHER THAN TRADITIONAL MORO FORM. THE BLADE IS MORO FORM. ITEM #6 THE TIP OF THE SCABBARD IS OPEN WORK CARVED IN A FASHON I HAVE SEEN IN LOMBOK AND BALI. THE OLDER BLADES WERE FORGED WITH WAVES OFTEN THE NEWER ONES ARE MADE FROM MONO STEEL AND THE BLADE SHAPED WITH GRINDERS HENCE THE THINNER BLADES AND SHARP POINTED LUKS. THE LOCAL PRODUCTION SEEMS TO BE INFLUENCED FROM OUTSIDE CULTURES WHICH IS TO BE EXPECTED AS VERY FEW PEOPLES ARE ISOLATED IN TODAYS WORLD AND OLD TRADITIONS ARE NOT AS STRONG SO INOVATIONS ARE NO LONGER HELD BACK. A WORLD OF RAPID CHANGE EVEN IN MINDANAO.