Old keris Iron Vs modern keris

Pusaka · 12th November 2005, 08:31 PM

As far as I know Keleng is a pure black keris with no pamor but not sure

nechesh · 12th November 2005, 08:43 PM

I own a very old keris kebo lajer (16thC) that is all black with the pamor pattern of kul buntet at it's base. It was discribed to me as pamor sanak by someone with much greater knowledge than me. Perhaps Keleng refers to a keris that has no pattern as well as no nickelous material.

nechesh · 12th November 2005, 08:59 PM

I had a moment to check some books and according to Frey, Pamor Luwu was measured some time back at 0.4% nickel, not 4%. Just a bit lower. Sorry.

marto suwignyo · 12th November 2005, 10:34 PM

Regarding the questions raised by Mr. Pusaka.

Sharpness:- this a product of mechanical process ( sharpening on a stone) and blade geometry ( the angle formed by the two blade sides meeting at the edge) as well as the material use to make the blade. In old keris the blade very thin , usually, and also the edge usually not even which give serrated effect. Result is a blade that will cut skin easy but if this blade tested for cutting on rope or thin paper you will find that it not really sharp at all. What you have is perception that blade is sharp.
Keris that have been made as work of art or for purpose of dress often have not been heat treat and also not sharpen. Why should a maker risk the loss of many hours work which can occur if an unseen weld fault exists in the blade and it only become obvious when the blade is heat treat?Why should a blade that will not be used as a weapon be given a sharp edge?
Although keris used as a thrust weapon many keris made as weapon did have a sharpened edge.
The heat treat on any keris blade is not for the full length of the keris blade. On a Jawa blade it usually go to the end of the sogokan. On Bugis and Malay blades it sometimes go only to halfway up the blade or less.

Iron and steel:- old keris blades used iron for the outside layers of the blade; more recent keris blades often use mild steel for the outside layers of the keris blade. Iron does not have carbon and will resist rust better than steel. Mild steel only has low carbon content but will rust more easy than iron, especially if it is heat treat.The very oldest iron will be white and shiny if it file flat and polish. Take old iron and new steel, polish both and they will look similar.
The grainy or fibrous nature of some types of old iron make a very rough surface especially if the blade been cleaned many times. Iron like this has open grain structure so it easy for substance applied to blade to penetrate below outer surface of the iron. Warangan will penetrate a little and give deeper etch, oil will also penetrate and sometime after old blade cleaned you can still smell the oil in the blade. Actually iron like this not good iron because it shows that the maker of the blade did not wash the iron of impurity before using it to make the keris. Or at least he did not wash it enough.Mild steel is produce in factory with modern perfection and is very dense with tight grain structure.With repeated fold and weld even iron that start as very poor quality can be make dense and smooth and look almost like modern mild steel when it polish and stain.
All the sources of old iron use in making keris are not known but in Jawa traditional names are given to many kinds of iron and these names tell us that the iron from many different sources. Probably some iron smelted locally, some come into Jawa by trade. Keris have been found with blade made of wootz . In some 19 century and early 20 century books European writers say iron for keris is taken from Chinese tools. I think it will be safe to say that keris makers in the past will have act like smiths anywhere and use whatever iron they could get their hand on and most often not know where the original iron come from.

Pamor:- the word "sanak" mean "relation" or "relative" so if we say "pamor sanak" we mean the pamor material all related and not mixed with material that not iron. The word "pamor" mean "blend" or "mix". So pamor sanak make from all iron, just different kind of iron some white iron, some dark iron. Pamor luwu make from material from Luwu in Sulawesi like Mr. Nechesh already say. Pamor keleng really not quite right. The word "keleng" mean "black". Really is no pamor keleng, but is Mpu Keleng who tradition tell us from Pajajaran.Also is kelengan iron . This iron very black and have a very rough open grain . It is not good iron. Also in Malaysia people call a black keris, " keris kelengan ", but in Jawa we call keris like this "pangawak waja".

Empu:- I do not know any empu who still make keris. In modern time in Jawa was Empu Suparman(alm), Empu Pauzan Pusposukadgo, Empu Djeno Harumbrojo. Empu Suparman pass away in 1995, Empu Pauzan Pusposukadgo retire already some years, Empu Djeno Harumbrojo many people say can no longer work. There is story about somebody from Madura who become empu for Kraton Surakarta. Perhaps this only a story and not real.Some modern makers of keris from Madura and Jawa Timur make very, very good keris, but really these people are not empu. There are modern makers who still make keris with use traditional method, but if we want blade make with traditional method the cost many times the cost of blade make with modern method, and the blade make with modern method and blade make with traditional method really do not look so different when finished. To make a keris blade by traditional method take a very lot of time. Modern method is more quick. But if both blades finished, both look the same, if the skill level of both makers similar.

simatua · 13th November 2005, 10:29 AM

In my opinion the keris has developed itself from a waepon into a more religeus and status symbol.

from this perspective You can say that the for the more older kerises the main goal is -like all other waepons (example Swords from India)-, is to make a light, strong ( not break very easy) and edged knife.
The harder the knife ...the more sharper you can make it, but will break more easy, the more flexible cannot break easy, but cannot be sharpened as wanted. A weaponsmid, like an empu try to get the best from both.
Study material about wootz/damescener steel in this forum and Pauls keris place can help a lot of our keris lovers.

How to achieve?...Not only the used materials,and the mixture but also the procedure will influence the aspects as hardness, rusting, surface etc.
The difference between a old and modern keris lies in more than one aspect.
And i think the commercial factors make the different
1. time ( the more you make the more you earn..)
2. costs !! like amount of coal used, or use diffrent kind of fire witch will be influence the the contents of the iron.
3. The pamor patern is more importent than the weapon itself, Is that why we see more more and fancy pamors?

Pusaka · 13th November 2005, 01:30 PM

Ok I think I now understand the problem. Old keris are made with Iron with or without pamor but new keris are made with steel with or without pamor. The difference between Iron and steel is that steel has carbon added which strengthens the blade however it also increases the rate of rusting. Steel will rust much faster then Iron. The rate at which a material will rust will also affect the ability of the blade to keep an edge.
An example of this is when you shave you will notice that the razor blade gets blunt after about 2 or 3 shaves. It’s not your stubble which has caused the blade to get blunt but it’s the oxidisation (rusting) at the blade edge which causes it to become blunt and brittle, this is the major factor which causes razors to become blunt.
As I said before Iron rusts slower then steel so an Iron blade will keep its edge longer then a steel blade. The down side of this is that Iron is brittle and prone to fracturing whilst steel is not. If you were to put an old keris blade in a vice and apply pressure across the blade face it will simply snap because its made from Iron. If however you did the same to a modern keris blade it would flex and bend more before breaking because it’s made from steel.
The fact that keris blades were regularly oiled obviously would also protect it from rusting and thus help to keep the blade sharp.
Its only now that I realise that rate of rusting is the major factor in the ability of a blade to keep its edge that I realise why old keris tend to be sharper then steel keris.
The modern solution to this would be to make the blade from rust resistant steel so you would get the best of both worlds, the flexibility and strength of steel but a better blade edge then an Iron (old) keris.

Marto Suwigny your post was very informative and you established that there is such thing as black Iron and different grades of colours of Irons. I am guessing that the colour variation is caused by the presence of other minerals in the Iron ore, is that a good thing or a bad thing i.e. is pure Iron better?

nechesh · 13th November 2005, 02:40 PM

Actually, if you reread Marto's post you will see that he answered your last question:
"The grainy or fibrous nature of some types of old iron make a very rough surface especially if the blade been cleaned many times. Iron like this has open grain structure so it easy for substance applied to blade to penetrate below outer surface of the iron. Warangan will penetrate a little and give deeper etch, oil will also penetrate and sometime after old blade cleaned you can still smell the oil in the blade.Actually iron like this not good iron because it shows that the maker of the blade did not wash the iron of impurity before using it to make the keris. "
Also Marto wrote:
"Also is kelengan iron . This iron very black and have a very rough open grain . It is not good iron. "
Your logic on rusting perhaps makes some sense, though i'm not sure it would be correct to state that steel rusts "much" faster than iron. And i always thought sword makers moved into using steel not just because of increased strength, but also it's ability to hold a better edge than iron. But i could be wrong on that. Anyway, for many of us the regular oiling of our keris is not a thing of the past. I must say that i have been fortunate not to have seen any rust accumulate on any of my blades, new or old. Though it's a bit more work as the collection grows you just have to keep at it.

Pusaka · 13th November 2005, 03:09 PM

Since a sword blade is long it would make more sense to make it from steel because being a long blade it will flex more then a short keris blade and thus have more chance of breaking if it was Iron. I think that’s one of the main reasons why they moved to steel but I could be wrong.

13th November 2005, 10:29 AM	#5
simatua Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 69	back to basic In my opinion the keris has developed itself from a waepon into a more religeus and status symbol. from this perspective You can say that the for the more older kerises the main goal is -like all other waepons (example Swords from India)-, is to make a light, strong ( not break very easy) and edged knife. The harder the knife ...the more sharper you can make it, but will break more easy, the more flexible cannot break easy, but cannot be sharpened as wanted. A weaponsmid, like an empu try to get the best from both. Study material about wootz/damescener steel in this forum and Pauls keris place can help a lot of our keris lovers. How to achieve?...Not only the used materials,and the mixture but also the procedure will influence the aspects as hardness, rusting, surface etc. The difference between a old and modern keris lies in more than one aspect. And i think the commercial factors make the different 1. time ( the more you make the more you earn..) 2. costs !! like amount of coal used, or use diffrent kind of fire witch will be influence the the contents of the iron. 3. The pamor patern is more importent than the weapon itself, Is that why we see more more and fancy pamors?

13th November 2005, 01:30 PM	#6
Pusaka Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 341	Ok I think I now understand the problem. Old keris are made with Iron with or without pamor but new keris are made with steel with or without pamor. The difference between Iron and steel is that steel has carbon added which strengthens the blade however it also increases the rate of rusting. Steel will rust much faster then Iron. The rate at which a material will rust will also affect the ability of the blade to keep an edge. An example of this is when you shave you will notice that the razor blade gets blunt after about 2 or 3 shaves. It’s not your stubble which has caused the blade to get blunt but it’s the oxidisation (rusting) at the blade edge which causes it to become blunt and brittle, this is the major factor which causes razors to become blunt. As I said before Iron rusts slower then steel so an Iron blade will keep its edge longer then a steel blade. The down side of this is that Iron is brittle and prone to fracturing whilst steel is not. If you were to put an old keris blade in a vice and apply pressure across the blade face it will simply snap because its made from Iron. If however you did the same to a modern keris blade it would flex and bend more before breaking because it’s made from steel. The fact that keris blades were regularly oiled obviously would also protect it from rusting and thus help to keep the blade sharp. Its only now that I realise that rate of rusting is the major factor in the ability of a blade to keep its edge that I realise why old keris tend to be sharper then steel keris. The modern solution to this would be to make the blade from rust resistant steel so you would get the best of both worlds, the flexibility and strength of steel but a better blade edge then an Iron (old) keris. Marto Suwigny your post was very informative and you established that there is such thing as black Iron and different grades of colours of Irons. I am guessing that the colour variation is caused by the presence of other minerals in the Iron ore, is that a good thing or a bad thing i.e. is pure Iron better? Last edited by Pusaka; 13th November 2005 at 01:49 PM.

12th November 2005, 08:31 PM	#1
Pusaka Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 341	As far as I know Keleng is a pure black keris with no pamor but not sure

12th November 2005, 08:43 PM	#2
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	I own a very old keris kebo lajer (16thC) that is all black with the pamor pattern of kul buntet at it's base. It was discribed to me as pamor sanak by someone with much greater knowledge than me. Perhaps Keleng refers to a keris that has no pattern as well as no nickelous material.

12th November 2005, 08:59 PM	#3
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	I had a moment to check some books and according to Frey, Pamor Luwu was measured some time back at 0.4% nickel, not 4%. Just a bit lower. Sorry.

12th November 2005, 10:34 PM	#4
marto suwignyo Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 52	Regarding the questions raised by Mr. Pusaka. Sharpness:- this a product of mechanical process ( sharpening on a stone) and blade geometry ( the angle formed by the two blade sides meeting at the edge) as well as the material use to make the blade. In old keris the blade very thin , usually, and also the edge usually not even which give serrated effect. Result is a blade that will cut skin easy but if this blade tested for cutting on rope or thin paper you will find that it not really sharp at all. What you have is perception that blade is sharp. Keris that have been made as work of art or for purpose of dress often have not been heat treat and also not sharpen. Why should a maker risk the loss of many hours work which can occur if an unseen weld fault exists in the blade and it only become obvious when the blade is heat treat?Why should a blade that will not be used as a weapon be given a sharp edge? Although keris used as a thrust weapon many keris made as weapon did have a sharpened edge. The heat treat on any keris blade is not for the full length of the keris blade. On a Jawa blade it usually go to the end of the sogokan. On Bugis and Malay blades it sometimes go only to halfway up the blade or less. Iron and steel:- old keris blades used iron for the outside layers of the blade; more recent keris blades often use mild steel for the outside layers of the keris blade. Iron does not have carbon and will resist rust better than steel. Mild steel only has low carbon content but will rust more easy than iron, especially if it is heat treat.The very oldest iron will be white and shiny if it file flat and polish. Take old iron and new steel, polish both and they will look similar. The grainy or fibrous nature of some types of old iron make a very rough surface especially if the blade been cleaned many times. Iron like this has open grain structure so it easy for substance applied to blade to penetrate below outer surface of the iron. Warangan will penetrate a little and give deeper etch, oil will also penetrate and sometime after old blade cleaned you can still smell the oil in the blade. Actually iron like this not good iron because it shows that the maker of the blade did not wash the iron of impurity before using it to make the keris. Or at least he did not wash it enough.Mild steel is produce in factory with modern perfection and is very dense with tight grain structure.With repeated fold and weld even iron that start as very poor quality can be make dense and smooth and look almost like modern mild steel when it polish and stain. All the sources of old iron use in making keris are not known but in Jawa traditional names are given to many kinds of iron and these names tell us that the iron from many different sources. Probably some iron smelted locally, some come into Jawa by trade. Keris have been found with blade made of wootz . In some 19 century and early 20 century books European writers say iron for keris is taken from Chinese tools. I think it will be safe to say that keris makers in the past will have act like smiths anywhere and use whatever iron they could get their hand on and most often not know where the original iron come from. Pamor:- the word "sanak" mean "relation" or "relative" so if we say "pamor sanak" we mean the pamor material all related and not mixed with material that not iron. The word "pamor" mean "blend" or "mix". So pamor sanak make from all iron, just different kind of iron some white iron, some dark iron. Pamor luwu make from material from Luwu in Sulawesi like Mr. Nechesh already say. Pamor keleng really not quite right. The word "keleng" mean "black". Really is no pamor keleng, but is Mpu Keleng who tradition tell us from Pajajaran.Also is kelengan iron . This iron very black and have a very rough open grain . It is not good iron. Also in Malaysia people call a black keris, " keris kelengan ", but in Jawa we call keris like this "pangawak waja". Empu:- I do not know any empu who still make keris. In modern time in Jawa was Empu Suparman(alm), Empu Pauzan Pusposukadgo, Empu Djeno Harumbrojo. Empu Suparman pass away in 1995, Empu Pauzan Pusposukadgo retire already some years, Empu Djeno Harumbrojo many people say can no longer work. There is story about somebody from Madura who become empu for Kraton Surakarta. Perhaps this only a story and not real.Some modern makers of keris from Madura and Jawa Timur make very, very good keris, but really these people are not empu. There are modern makers who still make keris with use traditional method, but if we want blade make with traditional method the cost many times the cost of blade make with modern method, and the blade make with modern method and blade make with traditional method really do not look so different when finished. To make a keris blade by traditional method take a very lot of time. Modern method is more quick. But if both blades finished, both look the same, if the skill level of both makers similar.

13th November 2005, 02:40 PM	#7
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Actually, if you reread Marto's post you will see that he answered your last question: "The grainy or fibrous nature of some types of old iron make a very rough surface especially if the blade been cleaned many times. Iron like this has open grain structure so it easy for substance applied to blade to penetrate below outer surface of the iron. Warangan will penetrate a little and give deeper etch, oil will also penetrate and sometime after old blade cleaned you can still smell the oil in the blade.Actually iron like this not good iron because it shows that the maker of the blade did not wash the iron of impurity before using it to make the keris. " Also Marto wrote: "Also is kelengan iron . This iron very black and have a very rough open grain . It is not good iron. " Your logic on rusting perhaps makes some sense, though i'm not sure it would be correct to state that steel rusts "much" faster than iron. And i always thought sword makers moved into using steel not just because of increased strength, but also it's ability to hold a better edge than iron. But i could be wrong on that. Anyway, for many of us the regular oiling of our keris is not a thing of the past. I must say that i have been fortunate not to have seen any rust accumulate on any of my blades, new or old. Though it's a bit more work as the collection grows you just have to keep at it.

13th November 2005, 03:09 PM	#8
Pusaka Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 341	Since a sword blade is long it would make more sense to make it from steel because being a long blade it will flex more then a short keris blade and thus have more chance of breaking if it was Iron. I think that’s one of the main reasons why they moved to steel but I could be wrong.