Old keris Iron Vs modern keris

Rick · 12th November 2005, 03:25 PM

I'll offer a couple of pointers ; you don't sharpen an Indo-Malay 'keris' .

They are essentially for stabbing ; a 'bent elbow' weapon , having said that ; there are probably always exceptions in real hand to hand fighting .

If your new keris is rusting then it is most likely because you are not maintaining it properly .

Your old keris is thinner because of repeated washings in Warangan during Muharram ; if it is centuries old then a lot of the original material has been lost due to this process .

Below is an example of the results of a few hundred years of washing ; the parallel lines running down the blade are strands of the base iron .

A forum search using 'keris' will give you a LOT of information .
The search function can be found at the top right hand corner of the page .

We have a lot of keris enthusiasts here ; enjoy !

Pusaka · 12th November 2005, 04:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

I'll offer a couple of pointers ; you don't sharpen an Indo-Malay 'keris' .

They are essentially for stabbing ; a 'bent elbow' weapon , having said that ; there are probably always exceptions in real hand to hand fighting .

If your new keris is rusting then it is most likely because you are not maintaining it properly .

Your old keris is thinner because of repeated washings in Warangan during Muharram ; if it is centuries old then a lot of the original material has been lost due to this process .

Below is an example of the results of a few hundred years of washing ; the parallel lines running down the blade are strands of the base iron .

A forum search using 'keris' will give you a LOT of information .
The search function can be found at the top right hand corner of the page .

We have a lot of keris enthusiasts here ; enjoy !

Why is the Iron black?? if you look at a modern keris like the one I seen on this forum (bellow) it is silver as we would expect since it is steel but my old keris is black like the one in your photo but it is not dye, the Iron is black

nechesh · 12th November 2005, 04:23 PM

Welcome to the forum Pusaka.I would concur with Rick and would add a few more items. Firstly, as in the past with old keris, there are all levels of quality to be found in new keris. I have seen new keris which are at the highest level of keris making both technologically and artistically. Of course they cost more than a couple of hundred dollars.
The iron in certain old blades is prized for it's quality. However, i am unaware of there being "black" iron. All keris that have the pamor pattern raised with the iron black get that way through a staining process which uses arsernic to stain the iron black while leaving the nickelous pamor material silvery or gray. Traditionally this was a process which was done on a yearly basis yielding the results you see in Ricks example.
As Rick points out, you should NEVER sharpen a keris blade unless your aim is to ruin it.You will find that many are sharp in varying degrees, but the keris is essentially a stabbing weapon. I suppose the majority of new blades aren't made sharp because they are no longer intented to act as a weapon. But i am sure that many of the higher quality new blades would hold an edge just fine if they have one.
You will find that there are VERY few actual empus left in Indonesia. There are many talented smiths. Commissioning a blade from someone like empu Djeno (even he only supervises as his apprentices do the work) would be a fairly pricey affair and would probably take a couple of years at least. Sometime new blades are made from melting down out blades, but i am not sure this would give you a higher quality product in the end.

nechesh · 12th November 2005, 04:36 PM

Pusaka, i would image that if you ever (heaven forbid

) were to cut your old blade in half you would discover that it 's core is not black like the surface. You blade just has the remnants of it's last arsenic treatment.

nechesh · 12th November 2005, 07:01 PM

One other thing, it would be good if we qualified our terms here since each person tends to have a different idea on the subject. What do you mean when you refer to "modern" keris? The example you posted from a previous thread, for instance, is an antique blade, probably made in the late 19th century. While i don't consider this an ancient keris i don't call it modern either. That term i personally reserve for keris made post WWII up until the present.

Pusaka · 12th November 2005, 07:55 PM

Personally anything 100 years old or less is modern but I know this will be different for each person.

Can someone please explain what Pamor Sanak, Pamor Luwu and Keleng are.
Also I remember reading somewhere that old empus used to use 7 metals to construct a blade, has anyone else heard this?

nechesh · 12th November 2005, 08:20 PM

Hi Pusaka. To the best of my knowledge (hopeful more knowledgeable minds will correct me if i am wrong) Pamor Sanak has no nickelous material in it so that when the blade is stained by arsenic treatment there is very little contrast in the pattern. Sometimes there will be slight contrasts due to the different types of iron used. While i am sure you will find that old empus may have at times used 7 metals to form a keris i don't believe this could ever be counted as a rule and you will find slightly different processes and techniques used by different empus throughout time. Pamor Luwu refers to pamor material collected on Sulawesi (Celebes). This was once a very popular source for nickelous pamor. I don't think there was ever a natural source for nickelous pamor in Jawa before the Prambanan meteorite fall in the late 18th century. That material was considered quite special and reserved most for court pieces. I don't have reference books available, but if memory serves Pamor Luwu had about a 4% nickel content while the Pamor Prambanan was up towards 9%, producing a higher contrast when stained. I am not familar with Pamor Keleng, but perhaps others have heard of it.
By your own standard the keris you posted in before and after poses probably should not be considered modern.

Pusaka · 12th November 2005, 08:31 PM

As far as I know Keleng is a pure black keris with no pamor but not sure

Kiai Carita · 14th November 2005, 07:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nechesh

One other thing, it would be good if we qualified our terms here since each person tends to have a different idea on the subject. What do you mean when you refer to "modern" keris? The example you posted from a previous thread, for instance, is an antique blade, probably made in the late 19th century. While i don't consider this an ancient keris i don't call it modern either. That term i personally reserve for keris made post WWII up until the present.

Nechesh you made an interesting statement here...may I ask why you think WWII is significant in kerisology? .... and thank you Marto Suwignyo for the further elaboration of the proces of making keris.

Thank you
KC

nechesh · 14th November 2005, 12:49 PM

Well Kiai, in many ways it is a somewhat arbitrary dating on my part. But it is my understanding however that in Bali, for instance, there was not much serious keris making after that war. I would imagine that WWII had a great impact on the region as a whole as well. Though the Puputans definitely signaled an end of an era in Bali at the beginning of the century it is my understanding that a certain amount of cultural rebounding was beginning to take place up until WWII. Whether this applied to the rest of Indonesia i am unsure, but i would think that a world war in your back yard could put quite a damper on things.

Pusaka · 14th November 2005, 07:11 PM

In modern times which keris workers are able to produce a keris using meteorite Iron? I know it is difficult so most keris workers dont have this skill but which ones have.

12th November 2005, 03:25 PM	#1
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,339	Welcome To The Forum I'll offer a couple of pointers ; you don't sharpen an Indo-Malay 'keris' . They are essentially for stabbing ; a 'bent elbow' weapon , having said that ; there are probably always exceptions in real hand to hand fighting . If your new keris is rusting then it is most likely because you are not maintaining it properly . Your old keris is thinner because of repeated washings in Warangan during Muharram ; if it is centuries old then a lot of the original material has been lost due to this process . Below is an example of the results of a few hundred years of washing ; the parallel lines running down the blade are strands of the base iron . A forum search using 'keris' will give you a LOT of information . The search function can be found at the top right hand corner of the page . We have a lot of keris enthusiasts here ; enjoy ! Attached Images

12th November 2005, 04:23 PM	#3
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Welcome to the forum Pusaka.I would concur with Rick and would add a few more items. Firstly, as in the past with old keris, there are all levels of quality to be found in new keris. I have seen new keris which are at the highest level of keris making both technologically and artistically. Of course they cost more than a couple of hundred dollars. The iron in certain old blades is prized for it's quality. However, i am unaware of there being "black" iron. All keris that have the pamor pattern raised with the iron black get that way through a staining process which uses arsernic to stain the iron black while leaving the nickelous pamor material silvery or gray. Traditionally this was a process which was done on a yearly basis yielding the results you see in Ricks example. As Rick points out, you should NEVER sharpen a keris blade unless your aim is to ruin it.You will find that many are sharp in varying degrees, but the keris is essentially a stabbing weapon. I suppose the majority of new blades aren't made sharp because they are no longer intented to act as a weapon. But i am sure that many of the higher quality new blades would hold an edge just fine if they have one. You will find that there are VERY few actual empus left in Indonesia. There are many talented smiths. Commissioning a blade from someone like empu Djeno (even he only supervises as his apprentices do the work) would be a fairly pricey affair and would probably take a couple of years at least. Sometime new blades are made from melting down out blades, but i am not sure this would give you a higher quality product in the end. Last edited by nechesh; 12th November 2005 at 06:53 PM.

12th November 2005, 04:36 PM	#4
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Pusaka, i would image that if you ever (heaven forbid ) were to cut your old blade in half you would discover that it 's core is not black like the surface. You blade just has the remnants of it's last arsenic treatment.

12th November 2005, 07:01 PM	#5
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	One other thing, it would be good if we qualified our terms here since each person tends to have a different idea on the subject. What do you mean when you refer to "modern" keris? The example you posted from a previous thread, for instance, is an antique blade, probably made in the late 19th century. While i don't consider this an ancient keris i don't call it modern either. That term i personally reserve for keris made post WWII up until the present.

12th November 2005, 07:55 PM	#6
Pusaka Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 341	Personally anything 100 years old or less is modern but I know this will be different for each person. Can someone please explain what Pamor Sanak, Pamor Luwu and Keleng are. Also I remember reading somewhere that old empus used to use 7 metals to construct a blade, has anyone else heard this?

12th November 2005, 08:20 PM	#7
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Hi Pusaka. To the best of my knowledge (hopeful more knowledgeable minds will correct me if i am wrong) Pamor Sanak has no nickelous material in it so that when the blade is stained by arsenic treatment there is very little contrast in the pattern. Sometimes there will be slight contrasts due to the different types of iron used. While i am sure you will find that old empus may have at times used 7 metals to form a keris i don't believe this could ever be counted as a rule and you will find slightly different processes and techniques used by different empus throughout time. Pamor Luwu refers to pamor material collected on Sulawesi (Celebes). This was once a very popular source for nickelous pamor. I don't think there was ever a natural source for nickelous pamor in Jawa before the Prambanan meteorite fall in the late 18th century. That material was considered quite special and reserved most for court pieces. I don't have reference books available, but if memory serves Pamor Luwu had about a 4% nickel content while the Pamor Prambanan was up towards 9%, producing a higher contrast when stained. I am not familar with Pamor Keleng, but perhaps others have heard of it. By your own standard the keris you posted in before and after poses probably should not be considered modern.

12th November 2005, 08:31 PM	#8
Pusaka Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 341	As far as I know Keleng is a pure black keris with no pamor but not sure

14th November 2005, 12:49 PM	#10
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Well Kiai, in many ways it is a somewhat arbitrary dating on my part. But it is my understanding however that in Bali, for instance, there was not much serious keris making after that war. I would imagine that WWII had a great impact on the region as a whole as well. Though the Puputans definitely signaled an end of an era in Bali at the beginning of the century it is my understanding that a certain amount of cultural rebounding was beginning to take place up until WWII. Whether this applied to the rest of Indonesia i am unsure, but i would think that a world war in your back yard could put quite a damper on things.

14th November 2005, 07:11 PM	#11
Pusaka Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 341	In modern times which keris workers are able to produce a keris using meteorite Iron? I know it is difficult so most keris workers dont have this skill but which ones have.