Karabela origin?

archer burak · 26th February 2014, 10:17 AM

[QUOTE=Andrew]Archer, the "nonsense" comment I made was directed at your specious position that"Sorry but this history not politics , or ethnicity." I was not opining that your information was nonsense (I have no expertise or knowledge of Ottoman history and, thus, have no position.)

As there was clearly a misunderstanding of some sort, I will renew my final request that this portion of the topic be allowed to die without further comment.

In other words--let it go.

Andrew

As a historian , I hope Next time you'll act less biased to my words ...

Burak

Jim McDougall · 26th February 2014, 06:19 PM

[QUOTE=archer burak]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew

Archer, the "nonsense" comment I made was directed at your specious position that"Sorry but this history not politics , or ethnicity." I was not opining that your information was nonsense (I have no expertise or knowledge of Ottoman history and, thus, have no position.)

As there was clearly a misunderstanding of some sort, I will renew my final request that this portion of the topic be allowed to die without further comment.

In other words--let it go.

Andrew

As a historian , I hope Next time you'll act less biased to my words ...

Burak

Gentlemen,
May I please respectfully ask, along with Andrew, please let this texture in this thread go. It is completely counterproductive and I would point out that this entire fray stems from a laconic and deliberately nuanced comment by Sylektis, who has had no stock in this discussion whatsoever. Those few words taken out of the context of Buraks text deliberately and derisively accented had no purpose whatsoever beyond the unfortunate result seen.

This is an outstanding topic, and as Archer has profoundly noted, we here are indeed historians, most of us, and we need not let wording issues cloud our larger scope in discussion. Obviously there are cultural and language differences among us and typically our commonality is gentlemanly interaction despite those matters.

I for one, do not want this thread ended as there have been some brilliant entries which importantly address the conundrums is classifying these, and I am anxious to hit the books myself to see if I can add anything as well.

Let us continue!!!

Best regards
Jim

TVV · 26th February 2014, 06:42 PM

[QUOTE=archer burak]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew

Archer, the "nonsense" comment I made was directed at your specious position that"Sorry but this history not politics , or ethnicity." I was not opining that your information was nonsense (I have no expertise or knowledge of Ottoman history and, thus, have no position.)

As there was clearly a misunderstanding of some sort, I will renew my final request that this portion of the topic be allowed to die without further comment.

In other words--let it go.

Andrew

As a historian , I hope Next time you'll act less biased to my words ...

Burak

You call yourself historian? I am sorry, but I find your Pan-Turkic and Nationalistic drivel obnoxious, pointless and completely unproductive. You are at the wrong place.

It is obvious you will not stop to spew nonsense, so I kindly ask the moderators to put an end to this NOW, with whatever means necessary.

Thank you,

Teodor

Jim McDougall · 26th February 2014, 07:17 PM

I am hoping my post (#25) is visible here. As I noted the nonsense is this entire diversion to an unfortunate misunderstanding in which it was simply noted that an alternative name for Poland, Lehistan, was used in Ottoman parlance . What we are talking about is the 'karabela' sabre, and there are the inevitable disputes on the etymology of the term, as well as its application.

Ostrowski (1979, p.232) notes "..the etymology of this strange name remains unexplained" and that"...perhaps the village of Karabel in Turkey comes closer to probability though there is no evidence other than phonetic similarity". Further "...there is no agreement among Polish arms students in the scope of this term, which is often stretched to include all Polish parade sabres having an open hilt".

Again, remaining objective, a skill often in short measure in these discussions, regarding the floral device in the center of the crossguard in the example shown, in Ostrowski (p.233, fig. 22) there is a 'karabela' with a cockle shell device (Louis XVI motif) one of many French rococo designs typical of eclectic tastes of Polish nobility in 18th century. There appear to be other devices used in the same manner.
As noted by Martin, this same application of flora devices is found in some Afghan paluaors and North Indian tulwars, possibly an Ottoman derived affinity however these kind of elements are far too wide in scope to assign any directly supportable influence or connection .

The chevron styling on the grips appear to be an affinity associated with Lvov.

Andrew · 26th February 2014, 07:26 PM

[QUOTE=TVV]

Quote:

Originally Posted by archer burak

You call yourself historian? I am sorry, but I find your Pan-Turkic and Nationalistic drivel obnoxious, pointless and completely unproductive. You are at the wrong place.

It is obvious you will not stop to spew nonsense, so I kindly ask the moderators to put an end to this NOW, with whatever means necessary.

Thank you,

Teodor

Teodor, please do not engage in this sort of exchange. Comments like this are pointless and unproductive as well. Let the Staff do our jobs.

Andrew

Andrew · 26th February 2014, 07:30 PM

Another Mod has closed this thread out of concern that the off-topic elements of discussion will continue and further derail it. I am re-opening this thread with a request that it stay on-topic and the participants exercise restraint in their postings.

If my request is not respected, the thread will be closed once and for all and bans will, unfortunately, be levied without further notice.

Andrew

Martin Lubojacky · 7th March 2014, 04:16 PM

Hi Valjhun,
Since you placed photo of a nice karabela with floral motive here, I am enclosing flower motives on Iranian shamsir just for pleasure. (The pictures are from the book "Sultanlarin silahlari by Hilmi Aydin, the piece is from Topkapi collection)
Regards,
Martin

archer burak · 1st March 2014, 12:12 AM

[QUOTE=TVV]

Quote:

Originally Posted by archer burak

You call yourself historian? I am sorry, but I find your Pan-Turkic and Nationalistic drivel obnoxious, pointless and completely unproductive. You are at the wrong place.

It is obvious you will not stop to spew nonsense, so I kindly ask the moderators to put an end to this NOW, with whatever means necessary.

Thank you,

Teodor

Last word ,
Sorry to all forum members , but you're doing wrong Andrew : when ı talk to Karabela s origin ı give some historic datas and ethimological datas , and than go with a historical well known joke about Poland and Ottoman history ... but you cant understand !...Than you came and walk like an elephant in the glassware shop and have a mess... ı dont understand what you want ...you admit you have no idea about Ottoman history but you doing rewievs ... ı am not agree with you that ı am act like nationalistic and force or disturb any one in this forum ...ı am working on central asian and ottoman also japan history thats my profession is it crime ? ... you cant label me and blame me ... ıf you want to learn my history carrier forget my scientific articles historian of my past and type Yaşar Burak Uslu on your web browser and see my latest History program on Tv , name ''Avcının Tarihi '' ( Hunters History ) latest part from Topkapı Palace Museum Weapons imperial showroom watch than think again... ! Sorry to all forum members to this speach but ı had to express myself against this offenses , best regards.

Andrew · 1st March 2014, 11:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by archer burak

Last word ,
Sorry to all forum members , but you're doing wrong Andrew : when ı talk to Karabela s origin ı give some historic datas and ethimological datas , and than go with a historical well known joke about Poland and Ottoman history ... but you cant understand !...Than you came and walk like an elephant in the glassware shop and have a mess... ı dont understand what you want ...you admit you have no idea about Ottoman history but you doing rewievs ... ı am not agree with you that ı am act like nationalistic and force or disturb any one in this forum ...ı am working on central asian and ottoman also japan history thats my profession is it crime ? ... you cant label me and blame me ... ıf you want to learn my history carrier forget my scientific articles historian of my past and type Yaşar Burak Uslu on your web browser and see my latest History program on Tv , name ''Avcının Tarihi '' ( Hunters History ) latest part from Topkapı Palace Museum Weapons imperial showroom watch than think again... ! Sorry to all forum members to this speach but ı had to express myself against this offenses , best regards.

Archer,

I believe there is some confusion here--the comment you quoted was not by me and I did not approve of it. In fact, I advised TVV as much on this very thread.

Perhaps there is some confusion due to language differences. The "well known joke" you reference, for instance, is unfamiliar to me. In any event, I am not trying to denigrate your opinions and credentials. My actions have been to redirect this thread back to the topic at hand and to head off any potential conflicts while going out of my way to treat everyone fairly.

Despite my best efforts, you somehow feel persecuted. So be it.

I do earnestly hope this is, truly, your final word on this topic. I can assure you it is mine.

Andrew

Sancar · 2nd March 2014, 09:03 AM

I really don't want to add to this whole unpleasent situation but I must say that I know Mr.Yaşar Burak Uslu by reputation and he is a well-respected Turkish historian and writer. I'm sure all is just a misunderstanding.

Andrew · 26th February 2014, 07:24 PM

[QUOTE=archer burak]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew

Archer, the "nonsense" comment I made was directed at your specious position that"Sorry but this history not politics , or ethnicity." I was not opining that your information was nonsense (I have no expertise or knowledge of Ottoman history and, thus, have no position.)

As there was clearly a misunderstanding of some sort, I will renew my final request that this portion of the topic be allowed to die without further comment.

In other words--let it go.

Andrew

As a historian , I hope Next time you'll act less biased to my words ...

Burak

Archer, I am not biased for or against you or any other forum member. I am here to keep the peace and keep discussion on-topic. The topic of this thread is the origins of the karabela. Not whether Poland was part of the Ottoman Empire.

Andrew

26th February 2014, 07:30 PM	#6
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	Moderator Action Another Mod has closed this thread out of concern that the off-topic elements of discussion will continue and further derail it. I am re-opening this thread with a request that it stay on-topic and the participants exercise restraint in their postings. If my request is not respected, the thread will be closed once and for all and bans will, unfortunately, be levied without further notice. Andrew

7th March 2014, 04:16 PM	#7
Martin Lubojacky Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Czech Republic Posts: 843	flowers (of war ?) Hi Valjhun, Since you placed photo of a nice karabela with floral motive here, I am enclosing flower motives on Iranian shamsir just for pleasure. (The pictures are from the book "Sultanlarin silahlari by Hilmi Aydin, the piece is from Topkapi collection) Regards, Martin Attached Images

26th February 2014, 10:17 AM	#1
archer burak Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: İstanbul Posts: 22	[QUOTE=Andrew]Archer, the "nonsense" comment I made was directed at your specious position that"Sorry but this history not politics , or ethnicity." I was not opining that your information was nonsense (I have no expertise or knowledge of Ottoman history and, thus, have no position.) As there was clearly a misunderstanding of some sort, I will renew my final request that this portion of the topic be allowed to die without further comment. In other words--let it go. Andrew As a historian , I hope Next time you'll act less biased to my words ... Burak

26th February 2014, 07:17 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	I am hoping my post (#25) is visible here. As I noted the nonsense is this entire diversion to an unfortunate misunderstanding in which it was simply noted that an alternative name for Poland, Lehistan, was used in Ottoman parlance . What we are talking about is the 'karabela' sabre, and there are the inevitable disputes on the etymology of the term, as well as its application. Ostrowski (1979, p.232) notes "..the etymology of this strange name remains unexplained" and that"...perhaps the village of Karabel in Turkey comes closer to probability though there is no evidence other than phonetic similarity". Further "...there is no agreement among Polish arms students in the scope of this term, which is often stretched to include all Polish parade sabres having an open hilt". Again, remaining objective, a skill often in short measure in these discussions, regarding the floral device in the center of the crossguard in the example shown, in Ostrowski (p.233, fig. 22) there is a 'karabela' with a cockle shell device (Louis XVI motif) one of many French rococo designs typical of eclectic tastes of Polish nobility in 18th century. There appear to be other devices used in the same manner. As noted by Martin, this same application of flora devices is found in some Afghan paluaors and North Indian tulwars, possibly an Ottoman derived affinity however these kind of elements are far too wide in scope to assign any directly supportable influence or connection . The chevron styling on the grips appear to be an affinity associated with Lvov.

2nd March 2014, 09:03 AM	#10
Sancar Member Join Date: Sep 2013 Posts: 79	I really don't want to add to this whole unpleasent situation but I must say that I know Mr.Yaşar Burak Uslu by reputation and he is a well-respected Turkish historian and writer. I'm sure all is just a misunderstanding.