Tulwar stamped blade mark question

archer · 20th February 2014, 08:20 PM

Hi Matt, Here's a link to one discussion about a likely false EIC mark used to Imply East India Co. As a whole most of these marks are noted and discussed, but not much can be garnered from a lot of them, others clearly are Armory markings and numbers. Steve http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=tulwar

Matt Easton · 20th February 2014, 08:32 PM

Thanks Steve, I'll go and have a read.

Jens Nordlunde · 20th February 2014, 09:42 PM

Hi Matt,
I have asked Jim to join, as he is a master of the different stamps. I do hope he will join.
Regards
Jens

Matt Easton · 20th February 2014, 10:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by archer

Hi Matt, Here's a link to one discussion about a likely false EIC mark used to Imply East India Co. As a whole most of these marks are noted and discussed, but not much can be garnered from a lot of them, others clearly are Armory markings and numbers. Steve http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=tulwar

Interesting that - I have seen EIG on firearms:

Though these marks I'm referring to are nothing to do with European or imitation European stamps - as shown above these are quite un-European weird squiggly shapes

Jim McDougall · 21st February 2014, 03:55 AM

Jens, thank you very much !
Matt, its good to see your most interesting post on these marks. As you can see there is a great deal of confusion with the markings on arms in India, first because the East India Co. had its own army independent of the government initially. Prior to the dissolution of the EIC after the Indian Mutiny (1857) there was already a great deal of transition going on.
The quartered or flaunched heart balemarks with VEIC initials were replaced by a rampant lion around 1810.
In the Khyber regions however, the spurious marking of arms with these heart balemarks continued through the rest of the 19th c

With these particular marks in linear row of five, they appear to be native applied copies probably of North Italian marks often termed 'twig' marks associated with a number of makers there. It is presumed that these kinds of groupings of spurious European markings are generally used to suggest the blades are European and therefore of superior quality . These twig marks are often seen on earlier Italian blades which often were used in the khandas (called 'firangi' when so mounted) . In many cases they occur in groupings of three or more, sometimes even several lines of them.

There have long been myths about tallying kills on blades etc but these tales are as far as I have ever found, complete folklore. Actually the only instances I have ever found for such 'scores' are in aviation with the familiar kills on the fuselage of the aircraft. Even the tall tales of the wild west where gunfighters are said to have notched their guns are fabricated. None of the celebrated gunfighters weapons have ever had a single notch in them. It is believed that the myth began with Bat Masterson 'creating' souvenier Colts with notches in the grip .

Returning to EIC, and the triangle stamps etc. I believe these were left mostly inconclusive in the discussion a few years ago, however I believe they were EIG for East India Government probably much later in the Raj. There was no East India Co. after 1858, and though most arms and materials went to India through ISD (India Stores Depot) we know huge volume of materials did not.
It seems quite likely that these often poorly applied stamps with EIG may have been legitimately applied in various supply depots, but as noted that remains unclear.

All best regards,
Jim

Matt Easton · 22nd February 2014, 07:45 AM

Thanks Jim.
Yes I think the imitation of European marks may well have led to these crosses, just as with the eyelash marks so often seen.

What do you make of marks like this though, lifted from Archer's pulsar thread? I have similar stamps on tulwar blades -

Jim McDougall · 22nd February 2014, 04:57 PM

Hi Matt,
You have, in borrowing a well used phrase, 'awakened a sleeping giant', as the conundrum of so many markings and devices on arms of the subcontinent remains unsolved. We can of course speculate with some reasonable accuracy on many, such as the 'sickle' and these 'twig' type marks and a few others
This marking on the tulwar you show is in much the same blade quadrant as many stamped cartouches on these North Indian examples. If I recall, these are often a squared cartouche enclosing typically Urdu characters. Since these are often in the same location adjacent to the langet near the ricasso it may be of course some type of arsenal or acceptance stamp. In a similar instance an Algerian 'nimcha' (Briggs, 1965) illustrates a round cartouche with Arabic characters in similar location near blade edge, and that is presumed again some sort of acceptance or approval mark.

Another possibility is that marks in these locations on Islamic blades may have some sort of talismanic purpose, such as with the well known ' beduh' squares with numeric symbolism. In any case, the mark on your example here is virtually indiscernible, but seems to have the remains of serrated edge. The only European marks similar are the dentated half arcs of the 'sickles' but as far as I know these were never applied in this blade location. By the same token, the pierced langet seen here is typically on the tulwars farther north, particularly Sind, in that case Talpur, but again speculation. Afghan paluoars almost typically have spurious sickle marks on the blade at the near center of the blades length as seen on yours, but whether this curious mark near the blade root is related remains unclear.

Whatever the case it would be interesting to get a better image of the mark, whether in better light or even a sketch delineating the key points of the device. Every marking has the potential of being either a prototype or important anomaly.

All the best,
Jim

Rick · 22nd February 2014, 06:25 PM

Here are examples from Indian swords that I have in hand .

Jim McDougall · 22nd February 2014, 08:43 PM

Outstanding Rick!!! Thank you!
These perfectly illustrate the apparently key location that these marks were often, or perhaps consistently, placed. Matt, note the paired linear groupings and the fullers of that one blade, similar to the single line of these 'twigs' on yours. It is known that various Italian blades used various numbers of these marks in varying configuration , and with the import of many 'firangi' blades into India, the copying of these as indicators of imbued quality was inevitable.
The case of the odd, stippled script in the bottom example are of course the Bikaner armoury type markings, lending support to that type of capacity for these marks in that position.

Turning once again to the placement of certain marks on blades in a more temporal sense, it seems that on many blades in India, certain marks (such as trimurti) are found placed at strategic blade locations such as choil, near point, and others perhaps point of percussion etc. This of course also remains unproven, but intriguing in its apparent deliberate instances.

20th February 2014, 08:20 PM	#1
archer Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 373	blade markings Hi Matt, Here's a link to one discussion about a likely false EIC mark used to Imply East India Co. As a whole most of these marks are noted and discussed, but not much can be garnered from a lot of them, others clearly are Armory markings and numbers. Steve http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=tulwar

22nd February 2014, 04:57 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Hi Matt, You have, in borrowing a well used phrase, 'awakened a sleeping giant', as the conundrum of so many markings and devices on arms of the subcontinent remains unsolved. We can of course speculate with some reasonable accuracy on many, such as the 'sickle' and these 'twig' type marks and a few others This marking on the tulwar you show is in much the same blade quadrant as many stamped cartouches on these North Indian examples. If I recall, these are often a squared cartouche enclosing typically Urdu characters. Since these are often in the same location adjacent to the langet near the ricasso it may be of course some type of arsenal or acceptance stamp. In a similar instance an Algerian 'nimcha' (Briggs, 1965) illustrates a round cartouche with Arabic characters in similar location near blade edge, and that is presumed again some sort of acceptance or approval mark. Another possibility is that marks in these locations on Islamic blades may have some sort of talismanic purpose, such as with the well known ' beduh' squares with numeric symbolism. In any case, the mark on your example here is virtually indiscernible, but seems to have the remains of serrated edge. The only European marks similar are the dentated half arcs of the 'sickles' but as far as I know these were never applied in this blade location. By the same token, the pierced langet seen here is typically on the tulwars farther north, particularly Sind, in that case Talpur, but again speculation. Afghan paluoars almost typically have spurious sickle marks on the blade at the near center of the blades length as seen on yours, but whether this curious mark near the blade root is related remains unclear. Whatever the case it would be interesting to get a better image of the mark, whether in better light or even a sketch delineating the key points of the device. Every marking has the potential of being either a prototype or important anomaly. All the best, Jim Last edited by Jim McDougall; 22nd February 2014 at 05:13 PM.

22nd February 2014, 06:25 PM	#8
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,339	Marks Here are examples from Indian swords that I have in hand . Attached Images

20th February 2014, 08:32 PM	#2
Matt Easton Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Surrey, Great Britain. Posts: 53	Thanks Steve, I'll go and have a read.

20th February 2014, 09:42 PM	#3
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Hi Matt, I have asked Jim to join, as he is a master of the different stamps. I do hope he will join. Regards Jens

21st February 2014, 03:55 AM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Jens, thank you very much ! Matt, its good to see your most interesting post on these marks. As you can see there is a great deal of confusion with the markings on arms in India, first because the East India Co. had its own army independent of the government initially. Prior to the dissolution of the EIC after the Indian Mutiny (1857) there was already a great deal of transition going on. The quartered or flaunched heart balemarks with VEIC initials were replaced by a rampant lion around 1810. In the Khyber regions however, the spurious marking of arms with these heart balemarks continued through the rest of the 19th c With these particular marks in linear row of five, they appear to be native applied copies probably of North Italian marks often termed 'twig' marks associated with a number of makers there. It is presumed that these kinds of groupings of spurious European markings are generally used to suggest the blades are European and therefore of superior quality . These twig marks are often seen on earlier Italian blades which often were used in the khandas (called 'firangi' when so mounted) . In many cases they occur in groupings of three or more, sometimes even several lines of them. There have long been myths about tallying kills on blades etc but these tales are as far as I have ever found, complete folklore. Actually the only instances I have ever found for such 'scores' are in aviation with the familiar kills on the fuselage of the aircraft. Even the tall tales of the wild west where gunfighters are said to have notched their guns are fabricated. None of the celebrated gunfighters weapons have ever had a single notch in them. It is believed that the myth began with Bat Masterson 'creating' souvenier Colts with notches in the grip . Returning to EIC, and the triangle stamps etc. I believe these were left mostly inconclusive in the discussion a few years ago, however I believe they were EIG for East India Government probably much later in the Raj. There was no East India Co. after 1858, and though most arms and materials went to India through ISD (India Stores Depot) we know huge volume of materials did not. It seems quite likely that these often poorly applied stamps with EIG may have been legitimately applied in various supply depots, but as noted that remains unclear. All best regards, Jim

22nd February 2014, 07:45 AM	#6
Matt Easton Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Surrey, Great Britain. Posts: 53	Thanks Jim. Yes I think the imitation of European marks may well have led to these crosses, just as with the eyelash marks so often seen. What do you make of marks like this though, lifted from Archer's pulsar thread? I have similar stamps on tulwar blades -

22nd February 2014, 08:43 PM	#9
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Outstanding Rick!!! Thank you! These perfectly illustrate the apparently key location that these marks were often, or perhaps consistently, placed. Matt, note the paired linear groupings and the fullers of that one blade, similar to the single line of these 'twigs' on yours. It is known that various Italian blades used various numbers of these marks in varying configuration , and with the import of many 'firangi' blades into India, the copying of these as indicators of imbued quality was inevitable. The case of the odd, stippled script in the bottom example are of course the Bikaner armoury type markings, lending support to that type of capacity for these marks in that position. Turning once again to the placement of certain marks on blades in a more temporal sense, it seems that on many blades in India, certain marks (such as trimurti) are found placed at strategic blade locations such as choil, near point, and others perhaps point of percussion etc. This of course also remains unproven, but intriguing in its apparent deliberate instances.