Moro kris or sundang?

[apolaki]

Hello,

Can anyone tell me more information with regards to type of weapon, pamor, metallic composition, and possible age? It is approximately 24 inches and tapers towards the end, Thank you for your time!

[kai]

Can anyone tell me more information with regards to type of weapon, pamor, metallic composition, and possible age? It is approximately 24 inches and tapers towards the end, Thank you for your time!

Congrats, apolaki, very nice!

IMHO this is Moro: a Sulu kalis - mid-late 19th c., I'd guess. The lower asang-asang is obviously missing; not sure wether there ever was an upper one.

Not twistcore but an even rarer Moro type of pattern-welded blades. I'd love to see it cleaned and stained!

Regards,
Kai

[Battara]

I agree with Kai on it being Sulu (and that it needs to be etched and cleaned ).

However I think it is a little earlier, say the early 1800s.

[DaveS]

It seems to me that this blade looks like it has a lot more malay influence to it than moro. even the pamor looks pretty much Indonesian..........Dave.

[Battara]

It is possible that it is a Malay blade, although early Moro kris blades look similar to Malay sundang.

[Robert]

Hello Apolaki, Wonderful piece. I am not experienced enough with these to be able to make an expert judgement call on who or where this was made but, the overall appearance looks more Moro to me than Malay. Either way it is a beautiful piece and I too would love to see it cleaned and etched.

Best,
Robert

[apolaki]

Thank you all for your impressions of this piece. Can you tell me what features lead you to believe it is a Moro kris as opposed to a Sundang from Malaysia? For those who believe it is a Sundang, can you discern approximate age based on its features?

[kai]

Hello Jose,

I agree with Kai on it being Sulu (and that it needs to be etched and cleaned ).

However I think it is a little earlier, say the early 1800s.

I have to admit that my mid-late 19th c. timeframe may be a bit too cautious. However, when looking at the scrollwork I just don't see the quality I'd expect from early 19th c. pieces. While there may have been "village quality" examples in all periods, the combination of above-average pamor with sub-par scrollwork just doesn't parse with me though.

Regards,
Kai

[kai]

Hello Dave,

It seems to me that this blade looks like it has a lot more malay influence to it than moro.

I agree that this blade has a few odd features like the pretty feeble gangya.

However, the scrollwork at the base of the blade does look Moro rather than Malay to me. Also the hilt and, especially, the grip braiding seems textbook Moro to me.

even the pamor looks pretty much Indonesian..........

I'd suggest that this is probably because we're not used to see this kind of surface manipulated pamor from Moro blades; examples are rare, indeed.

BTW, Malay sundang don't show this kind of pamor construction any more often either...

Regards,
Kai

[kai]

Hello apolaki,

Could you please try to take pics in more light (lightly clouded day around noon)? I'd especially like a closeup of the base of the blade (both sides, please) taken directly from above since angled shots distort some features.

Is there any info/provenance for your piece?

Thank you all for your impressions of this piece. Can you tell me what features lead you to believe it is a Moro kris as opposed to a Sundang from Malaysia?

Tried to explain above. Am adding pics of another example in the next posting.

For those who believe it is a Sundang, can you discern approximate age based on its features?

Dating Malay sundangs seems to be very tough. Based on the wear of your example, 19th c. (regardless of its origin) seems plausible to me though.

Regards,
Kai

[DaveS]

Kai: Yes, the scrollwork does look more moro than malay, but the pamor just doesn't look moro to me at all. I think this is a definite hybrid. Not surprising, given the close proximity of these two groups..........Dave.

[kai]

Sold example from Stefan's site:
IMHO Datu quality from Sulu; pamor more controlled.

Regards,
Kai

[kai]

Hello Dave,

Yes, the scrollwork does look more moro than malay, but the pamor just doesn't look moro to me at all. I think this is a definite hybrid. Not surprising, given the close proximity of these two groups.

While I have seen many Moro kris blades in Malay fittings, I've yet to see a convincing case of a Malay blade in Moro dress. Sure, one might expect such piece given the close commercial and cultural ties between these groups, but the rarity of any examples is notable.

As stated above, my main point is that Malay sundang also don't show this controlled surface-manipulated pamor any more often than Moro kris; even if we move into keris of that region, this is not a type of pamor that is regularly utilized. Thus, I believe this makes it a bit tough to argue that this blade was influenced by Malay sundang or even that it must be a kind of hybrid.

Sure, the expertise originally came out of Indonesia; this is especially compelling for the twistcore pamor. Still, these are Moro twistcore blades (not hybrids, etc.). I'd posit the same for blades with this much rarer pamor type. What do you think of the example I just attached above, Dave?

Regards,
Kai

[DaveS]

Kai: With these types of blades it just seems to be more confusing with each one that comes up. I'll be the first to admit that with these so-called crossovers I just don't know for sure, and I don't think that any of us can be completely sure. I think there is not enough examples to study unfortunately. That Ashoka Arts kris is a real knockout!!!!!!. I would love to have it. That pamor is totally different than anything I've seen. Seems like every time I go on his site, I seem to miss ones like this.......Dave.