sword for id

CutlassCollector · 5th February 2014, 09:10 PM

That's an interesting cutlass and I've never seen one like that.
It has features of both the French 1833 especially the grip and of the US 1860 (riveted brass bowl) which was itself copied from the earlier French model. It's hard to tell from the pictures but I think it's a standard 1833 that has been prettied up and had the iron bowl cut out and replaced with the decorated brass one.
Both these cutlasses had fullered blades and while this blade is approx the right proportions and shape for the 1833 it looks flat. As Vandoo says it appears authentic and well matched to the scabbard. Could be a one of made for an officer or for presentation or an old blade re-hilted. I don't think replica but it's always a possibility.
Regards, CC.

fernando · 5th February 2014, 09:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CutlassCollector

... It's hard to tell from the pictures but I think it's a standard 1833 that has been prettied up and had the iron bowl cut out and replaced with the decorated brass one...

Good and wise point but ... to become an ornament or an officer equipment ?

fernando · 5th February 2014, 09:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CutlassCollector

... and while this blade is approx the right proportions and shape for the 1833 it looks flat...

Sorry my ignorance; could it be the blade of a "Briquet" ?

CutlassCollector · 5th February 2014, 10:13 PM

Good point, Fernando, perhaps you are right why go to the effort of embellishing a cutlass when you can have a fancy sword for an officer!

Perhaps with the blade cleaned up there may be some clues with markings. As you say these blades were usually well marked by the manufacturer on the spine and inspection marks on both the guard and ricasso. And usually some trace remains even on well worn blades.
Perhaps I am too optimistic and it is a a replica after all!
Regards, CC.

Jim McDougall · 6th February 2014, 04:48 AM

Thank you Vandoo!

As Fernando has astutely observed, this does appear to be a briquette blade, and this cutlass appears to be a pastiche, and extremely nicely done .
As CC has well noted there appears to be elements of the French M1833 cutlass and the brass bowl of the US M1860 might well be in use as well.

What is curious is that the pommel cap is not in the shape of the regular M1833 French, it is straight and angled , where the original is curved (Gilkerson , 1991, p.79, "Boarders Away".
The M1833 developed from the M1801 'sabre de bord' which was apparently japanned black rather than brass with the bowl guard, and this is typically mounted off the knuckleguard and not butted to the grip and pommel .

Since this bowl guard cutlass, the French M1801/33, was very popular it was used by virtually every European country's naval forces, so perhaps there may have been variants, but the anchor embellishment on the guard does not seem likely for a weapon for rack issue.

weapons 27 · 6th February 2014, 05:43 AM

I'll cleaned the blade and watch if I see markings...
the shell of the sword was painted black, the person that I bought this saber has removed the painting, we see even a few black marks

weapons 27 · 6th February 2014, 03:37 PM

I found no markings...
the blade is old and thick 4mm, very sharp

Shakethetrees · 2nd July 2014, 05:46 AM

Hello, all, I've been lurking on this forum for a while and recently joined. I collect a wide variety of things that I feel would be of interest here, and have been collecting for probably forty years. I have been in the silversmithing/restoration field since 1979 as a practicing professional. I hope I can add value to this forum!

I need to check my 1833. It's packed away now as I am in the process of a move. As I recall, though, the guard is iron, as are the pommel and grip. The "soup ladle" is also iron, unadorned, except for some edge thickening, and no rivets. It was brazed in place. The manufacture date and place should be etched in script on the back of the blade close to the guard.

It's also probably one that I would choose if I had to use it to defend myself. The balance is superb, the blade is sharp enough to do damage but not so sharp that the edge is delicate. It's of a good, manageable length, and because of the nicely defined shape, gets attention!

5th February 2014, 09:10 PM	#1
CutlassCollector Member Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Scotland Posts: 343	That's an interesting cutlass and I've never seen one like that. It has features of both the French 1833 especially the grip and of the US 1860 (riveted brass bowl) which was itself copied from the earlier French model. It's hard to tell from the pictures but I think it's a standard 1833 that has been prettied up and had the iron bowl cut out and replaced with the decorated brass one. Both these cutlasses had fullered blades and while this blade is approx the right proportions and shape for the 1833 it looks flat. As Vandoo says it appears authentic and well matched to the scabbard. Could be a one of made for an officer or for presentation or an old blade re-hilted. I don't think replica but it's always a possibility. Regards, CC.

5th February 2014, 10:13 PM	#4
CutlassCollector Member Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Scotland Posts: 343	Good point, Fernando, perhaps you are right why go to the effort of embellishing a cutlass when you can have a fancy sword for an officer! Perhaps with the blade cleaned up there may be some clues with markings. As you say these blades were usually well marked by the manufacturer on the spine and inspection marks on both the guard and ricasso. And usually some trace remains even on well worn blades. Perhaps I am too optimistic and it is a a replica after all! Regards, CC.

6th February 2014, 04:48 AM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	Thank you Vandoo! As Fernando has astutely observed, this does appear to be a briquette blade, and this cutlass appears to be a pastiche, and extremely nicely done . As CC has well noted there appears to be elements of the French M1833 cutlass and the brass bowl of the US M1860 might well be in use as well. What is curious is that the pommel cap is not in the shape of the regular M1833 French, it is straight and angled , where the original is curved (Gilkerson , 1991, p.79, "Boarders Away". The M1833 developed from the M1801 'sabre de bord' which was apparently japanned black rather than brass with the bowl guard, and this is typically mounted off the knuckleguard and not butted to the grip and pommel . Since this bowl guard cutlass, the French M1801/33, was very popular it was used by virtually every European country's naval forces, so perhaps there may have been variants, but the anchor embellishment on the guard does not seem likely for a weapon for rack issue.

6th February 2014, 05:43 AM	#6
weapons 27 Member Join Date: Feb 2012 Posts: 462	I'll cleaned the blade and watch if I see markings... the shell of the sword was painted black, the person that I bought this saber has removed the painting, we see even a few black marks

6th February 2014, 03:37 PM	#7
weapons 27 Member Join Date: Feb 2012 Posts: 462	I found no markings... the blade is old and thick 4mm, very sharp

2nd July 2014, 05:46 AM	#8
Shakethetrees Member Join Date: Apr 2014 Location: Louisiana Posts: 363	Hello, all, I've been lurking on this forum for a while and recently joined. I collect a wide variety of things that I feel would be of interest here, and have been collecting for probably forty years. I have been in the silversmithing/restoration field since 1979 as a practicing professional. I hope I can add value to this forum! I need to check my 1833. It's packed away now as I am in the process of a move. As I recall, though, the guard is iron, as are the pommel and grip. The "soup ladle" is also iron, unadorned, except for some edge thickening, and no rivets. It was brazed in place. The manufacture date and place should be etched in script on the back of the blade close to the guard. It's also probably one that I would choose if I had to use it to defend myself. The balance is superb, the blade is sharp enough to do damage but not so sharp that the edge is delicate. It's of a good, manageable length, and because of the nicely defined shape, gets attention!