Unknown keris

A. G. Maisey · 4th February 2014, 11:52 AM

David, I suspect that Klungkung is not a native speaker of English, and that he perhaps may be an Indonesian.

Of course, I could be totally wrong, but if he is Indonesian, he may have turned to Echols and Shadilly for guidance when he was phrasing his post.

Although Echols and Shadilly produced perhaps the most authoritative English/Indonesian dictionary, there are still some words in both languages that do not come into the other language with quite the same meaning and intent as they have in the original language, most especially when that meaning in the original language has both a scholarly and a colloquial usage.

The English word "provenance" is one of these confused words.

E & S give "provenance" as "provenience" for the reference, and "provenience" they give as "asal" and "sumber" in Indonesian.

Asal = "origin"

Sumber = "source"

"provenience" in Miriam-Webster is given as "origin, source"

If we go to Oxford, we learn that "proveniance" is a US variation of "provenance", and Oxford gives the meaning of "provenance" as "place of origin or earliest known history of something"

John Echols was an American, so it is only to be expected that he would base his definitions on Mirriam-Webster, rather than Oxford.

So Klungkung, not being a native speaker of the English language placed his trust in the accuracy of dictionaries, not realising that we as collectors have our own understanding of the word "provenance".

I believe that what Klungkung would like to hear are opinions on where this keris might have originated. Maybe even a little touch of tangguh might make him happy.

4th February 2014, 11:52 AM	#3
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	David, I suspect that Klungkung is not a native speaker of English, and that he perhaps may be an Indonesian. Of course, I could be totally wrong, but if he is Indonesian, he may have turned to Echols and Shadilly for guidance when he was phrasing his post. Although Echols and Shadilly produced perhaps the most authoritative English/Indonesian dictionary, there are still some words in both languages that do not come into the other language with quite the same meaning and intent as they have in the original language, most especially when that meaning in the original language has both a scholarly and a colloquial usage. The English word "provenance" is one of these confused words. E & S give "provenance" as "provenience" for the reference, and "provenience" they give as "asal" and "sumber" in Indonesian. Asal = "origin" Sumber = "source" "provenience" in Miriam-Webster is given as "origin, source" If we go to Oxford, we learn that "proveniance" is a US variation of "provenance", and Oxford gives the meaning of "provenance" as "place of origin or earliest known history of something" John Echols was an American, so it is only to be expected that he would base his definitions on Mirriam-Webster, rather than Oxford. So Klungkung, not being a native speaker of the English language placed his trust in the accuracy of dictionaries, not realising that we as collectors have our own understanding of the word "provenance". I believe that what Klungkung would like to hear are opinions on where this keris might have originated. Maybe even a little touch of tangguh might make him happy.