Sinhala / Sri Lankan Swords?

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 31st January 2014, 05:50 PM

Salaams All… Note to Library;

I add the following interesting detail from http://civitavecchia.co.uk/hasekura.html

Quote”Hasekura Tsunenaga, the Samurai Ambassador
Hasekura Rokuemon Tsunenaga (or "Francisco Felipe Faxicura", as he was baptized in Spain) (1571–1622) (Japanese: 支倉六右衛門常長, also spelled Faxecura Rocuyemon in period European sources, reflecting the contemporary pronunciation of Japanese) was a Japanese samurai and retainer of Date Masamune, the Daimyo of Sendai. In the years 1613 through 1620, Hasekura headed a diplomatic mission to the Vatican in Rome, traveling through New Spain (arriving in Acapulco and departing from Veracruz) and visiting various ports-of-call in Europe. This historic mission is called the Keichō Embassy (慶長使節), and follows the Tenshō embassy (天正使節) of 1582. On the return trip, Hasekura and his companions re-traced their route across Mexico in 1619, sailing from Acapulco for Manila, and then sailing north to Japan in 1620. He is conventionally considered the first Japanese ambassador in the Americas and in Europe .

The Japanese Embassy went on to Italy where they were able to meet with Pope Paul V in Rome in November 1615, the same year Galileo Galilei was first confronted by the Roman Inquisition regarding his findings against geocentricism. Hasekura remitted to the Pope two gilded letters, one in Japanese and one in Latin, containing a request for a trade treaty between Japan and Mexico and the dispatch of Christian missionaries to Japan. These letters are still visible in the Vatican archives. The Latin letter, probably written by Luis Sotelo for Date Masamune, reads, in part:
"Kissing the Holy feet of the Great, Universal, Most Holy Lord of The Entire World, Pope Paul, in profound submission and reverence, I, Idate Masamune, King of Wôshû in the Empire of Japan, suppliantly say: The Franciscan Padre Luis Sotelo came to our country to spread the faith of God. On that occasion, I learnt about this faith and desired to become a Christian, but I still haven't accomplished this desire due to some small issues. However, in order to encourage my subjects to become Christians, I wish that you send missionaries of the Franciscan church. I guarantee that you will be able to build a church and that your missionaries will be protected. I also wish that you select and send a bishop as well. Because of that, I have sent one of my samurai, Hasekura Rokuemon, as my representative to accompany Luis Sotelo across the seas to Rome, to give you a stamp of obedience and to kiss your feet. Further, as our country and Nueva España are neighbouring countries, could you intervene so that we can discuss with the King of Spain, for the benefit of dispatching missionaries across the seas."
-Translation of the Latin letter of Date Masamune to the Pope.
The Pope agreed to the dispatch of missionaries, but left the decision for trade to the King of Spain. The Roman Senate also gave to Hasekura the honorary title of Roman Citizen, in a document he brought back to Japan, and which is preserved today in Sendai. Sotelo also described the visit to the Pope, book De ecclesiae Iaponicae statu relatio (published posthumously in 1634):
"When we got there by the aid of God in the Year of Our Salvation 1615, not only were we kindly received by His Holiness the great Pope, with the Holy College of the Cardinals and a gathering of bishops and nobles, and even the joy and general happiness of the Roman People, but we and three others (whom the Japanese Christians had specially designated to announce their condition with respect to the Christian religion) were heard, rested, and just as we were hoping, dispatched as quickly as possible."
-(Sotelo, De ecclesiae Iaponicae statu relatio)
Besides the official description of Hasekura's visit to Rome, some contemporary communications tend to indicate that political matters were also discussed, and that an alliance with Date Masamune was suggested as a way to establish Christian influence in the whole of Japan:
"The Ambassador strongly insisted that the authority and power of his ruler was superior to that of many European countries"
-(Anonymous Roman communication, dated 10 October 1615)
"The Franciscan Spanish fathers are explaining that the King of the Ambassador [Hasekura Tsunenaga] will soon become the supreme ruler of his country, and that, not only will they become Christians and follow the will of the church of Rome, but they will also in turn convert the rest of the population. This is why they are requesting the dispatch of a high eclesiastic together with the missionaries. Because of this, many people have been doubting the true purpose of the embassy, and are wondering if they are not looking for some other benefit."
-(Letter of the Venetian ambassador, 7 November 1615).” Unquote.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

VANDOO · 31st January 2014, 06:32 PM

DANGER CONJECTURE AHEAD.

THE JAPANESE AMBASSADOR WAS PRESENT IN SPAIN FOR TWO YEARS SO PERHAPS A SWORD COULD HAVE BEEN SPECIALY COMISSIONED AND MADE. HE MAY HAVE SEEN THE VARIOUS SWORDS FROM OTHER COUNTRIES PRESENT IN SPAINS MUSEUMS. THOSE ACCOMPANING HIM WOULD HAVE REPORTED TO THE KING ANYTHING HE FOUND MOST INTERESTING AND COMENTED ON. THE LAW AGAINST GIVING SPANISH ARMS TO A FORIGNER MAY HAVE BEEN BYPASSED BY HAVING A SWORD COMISSIONED ESPECIALLY FOR THE AMBASSADOR INCORPORATING THE FEATURES AND TYPES HE MOST ADMIRED WHEN LOOKING AT THE EXAMPLES IN SPANISH COLLECTIONS.
THE CARVING ON THE BACK OF THE BLADE AS WELL AS ITS FORM DOES NOT RESEMBLE A SIRI LANKAN KASTANE BLADE IT LOOKS MORE LIKE THE SPANISH BLADE SHAPE. THE DRAGON OR MONSTER CARVED INTO THE BLADE LOOKS MORE LIKE WHAT IS SEEN ON CHINESE OR OTHER ASIAN COUNTRIES POLE ARM BLADES. THE HANDLE IS CLOSE TO THE KASTANE FORM BUT A BIT DIFFERENT. THERE DOSENT SEEM TO BE A SCABBARD FOR THE SWORD AND THE ONE IN THE PAINTING HAS A SCABBARD LOOKING MORE LIKE A LEATHER EUROPEAN FORM THAN ONE FROM CEYLON. MOST KASTANE DO NOT HAVE A SCABBARD AS THEY ARE USUALLY MADE OF THIN WOOD AND ARE VERY FRAGILE. THE SILVER ONES HOLD UP BETTER BUT ARE OFTEN MISSING AS WELL. IF THERE WAS A KASTANE PRESENT IN THE COLLECTIONS IN SPAIN PERHAPS ITS SCABBARD WAS MISSING AS WELL.
WHAT WOULD PROVIDE SOME GOOD INFORMATION AND NOT JUST CONJECTURE WOULD BE TO HAVE SOMEONE FAMILIAR WITH FORGED BLADES FROM SPAIN LOOK AT THE SWORD AS WELL AS SOMEONE EXPERT IN SIRI LANKAN WORKMANSHIP. UNTIL THEN WE MUST DIG AND SPECULATE AND PERHAPS HIT ON SOME FACTS ALONG THE WAY

.
I DON'T HAVE A PICTURE OF A BLADE WITH A CARVED MONSTER BUT INCLUDE TWO CHINESE BLADES A POLE ARM BLADE AND A SWORD.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 31st January 2014, 06:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VANDOO

DANGER CONJECTURE AHEAD.

THE JAPANESE AMBASSADOR WAS PRESENT IN SPAIN FOR TWO YEARS SO PERHAPS A SWORD COULD HAVE BEEN SPECIALY COMISSIONED AND MADE. HE MAY HAVE SEEN THE VARIOUS SWORDS FROM OTHER COUNTRIES PRESENT IN SPAINS MUSEUMS. THOSE ACCOMPANING HIM WOULD HAVE REPORTED TO THE KING ANYTHING HE FOUND MOST INTERESTING AND COMENTED ON. THE LAW AGAINST GIVING SPANISH ARMS TO A FORIGNER MAY HAVE BEEN BYPASSED BY HAVING A SWORD COMISSIONED ESPECIALLY FOR THE AMBASSADOR INCORPORATING THE FEATURES AND TYPES HE MOST ADMIRED WHEN LOOKING AT THE EXAMPLES IN SPANISH COLLECTIONS.
THE CARVING ON THE BACK OF THE BLADE AS WELL AS ITS FORM DOES NOT RESEMBLE A SIRI LANKAN KASTANE BLADE IT LOOKS MORE LIKE THE SPANISH BLADE SHAPE. THE DRAGON OR MONSTER CARVED INTO THE BLADE LOOKS MORE LIKE WHAT IS SEEN ON CHINESE OR OTHER ASIAN COUNTRIES POLE ARM BLADES. THE HANDLE IS CLOSE TO THE KASTANE FORM BUT A BIT DIFFERENT.

Salaams Vandoo... Like Hasekura and the Pacific our posts crossed...

Yes I dont give a lot of weight to the illegality of the weapon since he was given a European name on Baptism and later even made a Roman citizen...and since he was gifted it by the King himself I dont really think it was a problem. I do agree that more weight to a Spanish weapon would be plausible and I note your point on the hilt as well as the blade fullers and odd monster.
Thank you for your post.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Jim McDougall · 1st February 2014, 01:29 AM

Pics from Boccia & Coelho ("Armi Bianche Italiene", 1975, #516-519), this is an Italian sword presented to Philip III of Spain by Carlo Emanuel I of Savoy (1562-1630) apparently in 1603.

Worthy of note, the lionhead, and the 'monster head' on the scabbard tip.
While the blade is more of a narrow type with yelman rather than the form on the Hasekura example, these other features are interesting in considering influences present in Spain prior to the mission's arrival.

Jim McDougall · 1st February 2014, 01:40 AM

This is a falchion stated German from Stone (1934, p.224, #276) and stated 15th century. There is little information in text in Stone on this sword, its reference is shown as "A Cyclopedia of Costume or Dictionary of Dress" (James R. Planche, N.Y. 1877).

Please note the pronounced peak on this example, resembling this notable feature on the Hasekura sword. While the German provenance is of course distracting from our focus on Spain, and Italy, it is important to note that going through Calvert (1907, "Spanish Arms & Armour") there are profusely examples of German armour supplied to Spanish nobles and monarchs.
Armourers were typically actually 'brokers' and assembled harness components from many subcontracted artisans. With this they often furnished swords in many cases.

The 15th century classification is of course considerably earlier than the period we are discussing, but these blade profiles remained prevalent for many generations, even centuries with tradition bound Spain .

Jim McDougall · 1st February 2014, 01:40 AM

Another grouping of stortas from Boccia & Coelho (upper left #509) is from Venice c.1600.

(upper right, #543, #544) are both from Naples c. 1600-10

below #386, 387, 388 are from Venice c 1550, note the recurved crossguards reflecting basic form of developing hit system, also the human and lionheads.

* The late Tony North in his "Late 15th Century Italian Sword" (Connoisseur, 1975) notes the developed hilt system similar to nimcha of North Africa and of course kastane probably developed from this type sword hilt, citing Charles Buttin with concurring views.

Quite interesting is the sketch of a zoomorphic head in carved ivory from Italy (#389) dating from c1554. Of note, the deeply channeled fullers cf. those seen in the Hasekura kastane. Again, there are many Italian swords with these deeply channeled fullers, often in elaborate sectioning.

Jim McDougall · 1st February 2014, 02:54 AM

At last! I finally completed my three posts with images, posts #249, 250 and 251. Due to scanner issues I enlisted the help of my wife (my tech support) to use her phone to take these, so sorry for the drawn out grouping.

#249: Images of the Philip III sword from c1603, where this sword is in the Royal Armouries of Madrid as catalogued by Calvert in 1907. It is illustrated in "Armi Bianchi Italiene" (1975, opcit. and text on p.390).

What interesting here is the lionhead on this sword (of European form of course) and most notably the monster head on the scabbard tip .

It would seem that the use of figure heads was in place in Italy, and possibly elsewhere in Europe by mid 16th century, and as seen here, this and the 'monster' head were already featured on swords in Spain prior to the Hasekura mission.

If indeed the blade was produced in Spain placing this type of monster head on the peak of the blade, and spurious markings (as often placed) were added, could the second marking be a European attempt at Japanese characters?
I think we can rule out China as a place for blade provenance, and as seen, the Philippine possibility is out. Oriental influences seem quite present by the time of this sword c.1603.

The other images are pretty much explained in each post.

I want to note that these images and data are from the books referenced and photos using phone as noted.

***** Note: Apparantly there is conflict in whether the kastane and keris were acquired by Hasekura in Madrid at audience with Philip III.....or in another account which suggests these were obtained in Philippines -on behalf of Philip III ? Naturally confirmation of which is important in the consideration of these comparative examples.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 31st January 2014, 06:37 PM

Salaams All ~ Note to Library.

From http://www.artsales.com/ARTistory/Xavier/Hasekura.html

I quote"Having just crossed the Pacific Ocean Hasekura Tsunenaga had an audience with the Mexican viceroy in 1614. After traversing Mexico between Acapulco and Vera cruz and the Atlantic Ocean in 1615 he sailed for Spain where he met with the Spanish monarch Philip III (1598-1621). While in Spain he was baptized a Christian. The ceremony was conducted by the Archbishop of Toledo and the Duke of Lerma was designated as Hasekura's Godfather. Hasekura'a delegation stayed in Spain for eight months before traveling on to Italy".Unquote.

Thus since got the weapons presented there it would seem plausible that there could have been some Spanish influence in the case of a weapon having apparently a mixed provenance?

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

1st February 2014, 01:29 AM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,585	Pics from Boccia & Coelho ("Armi Bianche Italiene", 1975, #516-519), this is an Italian sword presented to Philip III of Spain by Carlo Emanuel I of Savoy (1562-1630) apparently in 1603. Worthy of note, the lionhead, and the 'monster head' on the scabbard tip. While the blade is more of a narrow type with yelman rather than the form on the Hasekura example, these other features are interesting in considering influences present in Spain prior to the mission's arrival. Attached Images Last edited by Jim McDougall; 1st February 2014 at 02:03 AM.

1st February 2014, 01:40 AM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,585	Another grouping of stortas from Boccia & Coelho (upper left #509) is from Venice c.1600. (upper right, #543, #544) are both from Naples c. 1600-10 below #386, 387, 388 are from Venice c 1550, note the recurved crossguards reflecting basic form of developing hit system, also the human and lionheads. * The late Tony North in his "Late 15th Century Italian Sword" (Connoisseur, 1975) notes the developed hilt system similar to nimcha of North Africa and of course kastane probably developed from this type sword hilt, citing Charles Buttin with concurring views. Quite interesting is the sketch of a zoomorphic head in carved ivory from Italy (#389) dating from c1554. Of note, the deeply channeled fullers cf. those seen in the Hasekura kastane. Again, there are many Italian swords with these deeply channeled fullers, often in elaborate sectioning. Attached Images Last edited by Jim McDougall; 1st February 2014 at 02:29 AM.

1st February 2014, 02:54 AM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,585	At last! I finally completed my three posts with images, posts #249, 250 and 251. Due to scanner issues I enlisted the help of my wife (my tech support) to use her phone to take these, so sorry for the drawn out grouping. #249: Images of the Philip III sword from c1603, where this sword is in the Royal Armouries of Madrid as catalogued by Calvert in 1907. It is illustrated in "Armi Bianchi Italiene" (1975, opcit. and text on p.390). What interesting here is the lionhead on this sword (of European form of course) and most notably the monster head on the scabbard tip . It would seem that the use of figure heads was in place in Italy, and possibly elsewhere in Europe by mid 16th century, and as seen here, this and the 'monster' head were already featured on swords in Spain prior to the Hasekura mission. If indeed the blade was produced in Spain placing this type of monster head on the peak of the blade, and spurious markings (as often placed) were added, could the second marking be a European attempt at Japanese characters? I think we can rule out China as a place for blade provenance, and as seen, the Philippine possibility is out. Oriental influences seem quite present by the time of this sword c.1603. The other images are pretty much explained in each post. I want to note that these images and data are from the books referenced and photos using phone as noted. ***** Note: Apparantly there is conflict in whether the kastane and keris were acquired by Hasekura in Madrid at audience with Philip III.....or in another account which suggests these were obtained in Philippines -on behalf of Philip III ? Naturally confirmation of which is important in the consideration of these comparative examples. Last edited by Jim McDougall; 1st February 2014 at 04:24 AM.

31st January 2014, 05:50 PM	#1
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Salaams All… Note to Library; I add the following interesting detail from http://civitavecchia.co.uk/hasekura.html Quote”Hasekura Tsunenaga, the Samurai Ambassador Hasekura Rokuemon Tsunenaga (or "Francisco Felipe Faxicura", as he was baptized in Spain) (1571–1622) (Japanese: 支倉六右衛門常長, also spelled Faxecura Rocuyemon in period European sources, reflecting the contemporary pronunciation of Japanese) was a Japanese samurai and retainer of Date Masamune, the Daimyo of Sendai. In the years 1613 through 1620, Hasekura headed a diplomatic mission to the Vatican in Rome, traveling through New Spain (arriving in Acapulco and departing from Veracruz) and visiting various ports-of-call in Europe. This historic mission is called the Keichō Embassy (慶長使節), and follows the Tenshō embassy (天正使節) of 1582. On the return trip, Hasekura and his companions re-traced their route across Mexico in 1619, sailing from Acapulco for Manila, and then sailing north to Japan in 1620. He is conventionally considered the first Japanese ambassador in the Americas and in Europe . The Japanese Embassy went on to Italy where they were able to meet with Pope Paul V in Rome in November 1615, the same year Galileo Galilei was first confronted by the Roman Inquisition regarding his findings against geocentricism. Hasekura remitted to the Pope two gilded letters, one in Japanese and one in Latin, containing a request for a trade treaty between Japan and Mexico and the dispatch of Christian missionaries to Japan. These letters are still visible in the Vatican archives. The Latin letter, probably written by Luis Sotelo for Date Masamune, reads, in part: "Kissing the Holy feet of the Great, Universal, Most Holy Lord of The Entire World, Pope Paul, in profound submission and reverence, I, Idate Masamune, King of Wôshû in the Empire of Japan, suppliantly say: The Franciscan Padre Luis Sotelo came to our country to spread the faith of God. On that occasion, I learnt about this faith and desired to become a Christian, but I still haven't accomplished this desire due to some small issues. However, in order to encourage my subjects to become Christians, I wish that you send missionaries of the Franciscan church. I guarantee that you will be able to build a church and that your missionaries will be protected. I also wish that you select and send a bishop as well. Because of that, I have sent one of my samurai, Hasekura Rokuemon, as my representative to accompany Luis Sotelo across the seas to Rome, to give you a stamp of obedience and to kiss your feet. Further, as our country and Nueva España are neighbouring countries, could you intervene so that we can discuss with the King of Spain, for the benefit of dispatching missionaries across the seas." -Translation of the Latin letter of Date Masamune to the Pope. The Pope agreed to the dispatch of missionaries, but left the decision for trade to the King of Spain. The Roman Senate also gave to Hasekura the honorary title of Roman Citizen, in a document he brought back to Japan, and which is preserved today in Sendai. Sotelo also described the visit to the Pope, book De ecclesiae Iaponicae statu relatio (published posthumously in 1634): "When we got there by the aid of God in the Year of Our Salvation 1615, not only were we kindly received by His Holiness the great Pope, with the Holy College of the Cardinals and a gathering of bishops and nobles, and even the joy and general happiness of the Roman People, but we and three others (whom the Japanese Christians had specially designated to announce their condition with respect to the Christian religion) were heard, rested, and just as we were hoping, dispatched as quickly as possible." -(Sotelo, De ecclesiae Iaponicae statu relatio) Besides the official description of Hasekura's visit to Rome, some contemporary communications tend to indicate that political matters were also discussed, and that an alliance with Date Masamune was suggested as a way to establish Christian influence in the whole of Japan: "The Ambassador strongly insisted that the authority and power of his ruler was superior to that of many European countries" -(Anonymous Roman communication, dated 10 October 1615) "The Franciscan Spanish fathers are explaining that the King of the Ambassador [Hasekura Tsunenaga] will soon become the supreme ruler of his country, and that, not only will they become Christians and follow the will of the church of Rome, but they will also in turn convert the rest of the population. This is why they are requesting the dispatch of a high eclesiastic together with the missionaries. Because of this, many people have been doubting the true purpose of the embassy, and are wondering if they are not looking for some other benefit." -(Letter of the Venetian ambassador, 7 November 1615).” Unquote. Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

31st January 2014, 06:32 PM	#2
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	DANGER CONJECTURE AHEAD. THE JAPANESE AMBASSADOR WAS PRESENT IN SPAIN FOR TWO YEARS SO PERHAPS A SWORD COULD HAVE BEEN SPECIALY COMISSIONED AND MADE. HE MAY HAVE SEEN THE VARIOUS SWORDS FROM OTHER COUNTRIES PRESENT IN SPAINS MUSEUMS. THOSE ACCOMPANING HIM WOULD HAVE REPORTED TO THE KING ANYTHING HE FOUND MOST INTERESTING AND COMENTED ON. THE LAW AGAINST GIVING SPANISH ARMS TO A FORIGNER MAY HAVE BEEN BYPASSED BY HAVING A SWORD COMISSIONED ESPECIALLY FOR THE AMBASSADOR INCORPORATING THE FEATURES AND TYPES HE MOST ADMIRED WHEN LOOKING AT THE EXAMPLES IN SPANISH COLLECTIONS. THE CARVING ON THE BACK OF THE BLADE AS WELL AS ITS FORM DOES NOT RESEMBLE A SIRI LANKAN KASTANE BLADE IT LOOKS MORE LIKE THE SPANISH BLADE SHAPE. THE DRAGON OR MONSTER CARVED INTO THE BLADE LOOKS MORE LIKE WHAT IS SEEN ON CHINESE OR OTHER ASIAN COUNTRIES POLE ARM BLADES. THE HANDLE IS CLOSE TO THE KASTANE FORM BUT A BIT DIFFERENT. THERE DOSENT SEEM TO BE A SCABBARD FOR THE SWORD AND THE ONE IN THE PAINTING HAS A SCABBARD LOOKING MORE LIKE A LEATHER EUROPEAN FORM THAN ONE FROM CEYLON. MOST KASTANE DO NOT HAVE A SCABBARD AS THEY ARE USUALLY MADE OF THIN WOOD AND ARE VERY FRAGILE. THE SILVER ONES HOLD UP BETTER BUT ARE OFTEN MISSING AS WELL. IF THERE WAS A KASTANE PRESENT IN THE COLLECTIONS IN SPAIN PERHAPS ITS SCABBARD WAS MISSING AS WELL. WHAT WOULD PROVIDE SOME GOOD INFORMATION AND NOT JUST CONJECTURE WOULD BE TO HAVE SOMEONE FAMILIAR WITH FORGED BLADES FROM SPAIN LOOK AT THE SWORD AS WELL AS SOMEONE EXPERT IN SIRI LANKAN WORKMANSHIP. UNTIL THEN WE MUST DIG AND SPECULATE AND PERHAPS HIT ON SOME FACTS ALONG THE WAY . I DON'T HAVE A PICTURE OF A BLADE WITH A CARVED MONSTER BUT INCLUDE TWO CHINESE BLADES A POLE ARM BLADE AND A SWORD. Attached Images Last edited by VANDOO; 31st January 2014 at 07:02 PM.

31st January 2014, 06:37 PM	#8
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Salaams All ~ Note to Library. From http://www.artsales.com/ARTistory/Xavier/Hasekura.html I quote"Having just crossed the Pacific Ocean Hasekura Tsunenaga had an audience with the Mexican viceroy in 1614. After traversing Mexico between Acapulco and Vera cruz and the Atlantic Ocean in 1615 he sailed for Spain where he met with the Spanish monarch Philip III (1598-1621). While in Spain he was baptized a Christian. The ceremony was conducted by the Archbishop of Toledo and the Duke of Lerma was designated as Hasekura's Godfather. Hasekura'a delegation stayed in Spain for eight months before traveling on to Italy".Unquote. Thus since got the weapons presented there it would seem plausible that there could have been some Spanish influence in the case of a weapon having apparently a mixed provenance? Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi.