Sinhala / Sri Lankan Swords?

[Andrew]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams Fernando, ~ How kind it is of you to write. I cannot however add anything of note to your topic since it contains not a drop of detail relevant to this discussion...or as you put it... non valid. Your joke about the gargoyle is so funny Fernando do you do comedy on television?

Joking apart however, I note your pathetic, apologetic final statement but trust that you may add finer detail in the quest to bolster this excellent thread...which is not only about the Kastane but other Sri Lankan weapons as well ...Everyone knows the Kastane formed a very large part of the discussion and that is not an unusual avenue for threads to take..and it took how long before someone jumped on that particular bandwagon?... suddenly after hundreds of posts to be referred back to its original #1 starter...

It is of sheer blinding amazement that you of all people would want to derail proceedings since after all the Kastane is more than likely of Portuguese collaborative origin and that surely the detail contained now far exceeded what went before...and that your letter forms such a personal attack upon my style of writing, etiquette and accepted formal expressions...

Sir, if you vehemently have something to say, off topic, then by all means send me a PM.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Please take it down a notch, Ibrahiim. Try reading for content and intent rather than inferring insult where none may be intended. Like you, many forum members are not native English speakers.

Also, perhaps you could step back and take an objective look at your posting habits and style. You do not "break" any specific rules, but if your intention is to disregard or dismiss other member's comments and criticism (whether valid or otherwise), you ought not expect a different response.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Andrew

Please take it down a notch, Ibrahiim. Try reading for content and intent rather than inferring insult where none may be intended. Like you, many forum members are not native English speakers.

Also, perhaps you could step back and take an objective look at your posting habits and style. You do not "break" any specific rules, but if your intention is to disregard or dismiss other member's comments and criticism (whether valid or otherwise), you ought not expect a different response.

Salaams Andrew ~ You know as well as I do that there is a duel of pens going on here... but that so far as I am concerned I have but one reason to add detail on Forum... That reason being forum learning and understanding of the facts. If some members are driven to sleep by my posts let them not open them...but present the truth and the facts I will always try to do... and unlike others at least to try to promote a modicum of research. I have not dismissed or disregarded any comments...In fact all comments are respected except in the case of blatant and unnecessary remarks... Would you be so insulted?

I have looked at my posts and in standing back as you suggest I see a few areas I can improve on...I could do with a decent library !! I start my posts in the same way because that is how I was taught to be respectful to all readers.
Often the two dimensional attributes of the written form don't fully express the intent being expressed by the author .. that must be taken into account by the reader.. Where a researcher has clearly spent ages ploughing up details and information it is bound to be irritating if "a one liner special" or farcical reply is presented in all seriousness as a response! Perhaps I should add to posts only serious players need comment!

Meanwhile and with great respect I withdraw from the thread on Sri Lankan Weapons in all respects but hope that it continues unabated. Should you prefer, I agree to have removed all of my posts from this thread. That way we shall see who is serious about research in this field.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[AhmedH]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams Andrew ~ You know as well as I do that there is a duel of pens going on here... but that so far as I am concerned I have but one reason to add detail on Forum... That reason being forum learning and understanding of the facts. If some members are driven to sleep by my posts let them not open them...but present the truth and the facts I will always try to do... and unlike others at least to try to promote a modicum of research. I have not dismissed or disregarded any comments...In fact all comments are respected except in the case of blatant and unnecessary remarks... Would you be so insulted?

I have looked at my posts and in standing back as you suggest I see a few areas I can improve on...I could do with a decent library !! I start my posts in the same way because that is how I was taught to be respectful to all readers.
Often the two dimensional attributes of the written form don't fully express the intent being expressed by the author .. that must be taken into account by the reader.. Where a researcher has clearly spent ages ploughing up details and information it is bound to be irritating if "a one liner special" or farcical reply is presented in all seriousness as a response! Perhaps I should add to posts only serious players need comment!

Meanwhile and with great respect I withdraw from the thread on Sri Lankan Weapons in all respects but hope that it continues unabated. Should you prefer, I agree to have removed all of my posts from this thread. That way we shall see who is serious about research in this field.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Salaams Ibrahiim!

I understand your frustration, but for the sake of knowledge and research, I must admit that your posts in this thread are very important and essential indeed. Therefore, I request that you'd withdraw your offer for the moderator to stop or delete your precious postings in this thread. Frankly, I find them EXTREMELY useful and knowledgeable. Also DO NOT forget that Andrew has admitted that you didn't break any rules in your posts, so please do not be over-sensitive. Again, I understand your upset, and in fact, I sympathize with you greatly, but it would be very disappointing if you withdrew from this thread now.

Please think about what I've told you, buddy!

Thanks a lot in advance!

Best regards,
Ahmed Helal Hussein

[Andrew]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams Andrew ~ You know as well as I do that there is a duel of pens going on here... but that so far as I am concerned I have but one reason to add detail on Forum... That reason being forum learning and understanding of the facts. If some members are driven to sleep by my posts let them not open them...but present the truth and the facts I will always try to do... and unlike others at least to try to promote a modicum of research. I have not dismissed or disregarded any comments...In fact all comments are respected except in the case of blatant and unnecessary remarks... Would you be so insulted?

I have looked at my posts and in standing back as you suggest I see a few areas I can improve on...I could do with a decent library !! I start my posts in the same way because that is how I was taught to be respectful to all readers.
Often the two dimensional attributes of the written form don't fully express the intent being expressed by the author .. that must be taken into account by the reader.. Where a researcher has clearly spent ages ploughing up details and information it is bound to be irritating if "a one liner special" or farcical reply is presented in all seriousness as a response! Perhaps I should add to posts only serious players need comment!

Meanwhile and with great respect I withdraw from the thread on Sri Lankan Weapons in all respects but hope that it continues unabated. Should you prefer, I agree to have removed all of my posts from this thread. That way we shall see who is serious about research in this field.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Ibrahiim:

My role here is to keep order, not pick "sides." It is not my intent to stifle productive discussion--quite the opposite.

I believe you are well-intended with your postings.

However, I am uncertain if you appreciate that your posting style irritates (and, perhaps, alienates) some of your fellow forum members? Does that bother you at all or, perhaps, encourage you to consider making some changes? If so, you may well cut down on some of the responses that irritate you if you made an effort to understand and change what irritates others.

If not...you reap what you sow.

A

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Andrew

Ibrahiim:

My role here is to keep order, not pick "sides." It is not my intent to stifle productive discussion--quite the opposite.

I believe you are well-intended with your postings.

However, I am uncertain if you appreciate that your posting style irritates (and, perhaps, alienates) some of your fellow forum members? Does that bother you at all or, perhaps, encourage you to consider making some changes? If so, you may well cut down on some of the responses that irritate you if you made an effort to understand and change what irritates others.

If not...you reap what you sow.

A

Salaams Andrew, Your role is highly respected. As you note ..my intentions are solid behind promoting the Forums knowledge. Your advice is sought on which way to manoeuvre this thread?

We have at our bidding a great opportunity to examine the Japanese variant as placed in my last post on the subject ...Personally I think the Storta appears as the winner in terms of influence. It does, however, somewhat rule out the comparison with the Popham item. I suspect that the blade stamps were, in fact, placed by the Japanese "owner-apparent" Hasekura Tsunenaga, and I have examples of his marks for comparison. Perhaps the Japanese so called Kastane is a huge red herring? It may well be that the thread will run dry, however, we will have placed a great deal of information so that in future another researcher can take on the challenge.

This thread remains as ever an open conduit for all manner of Sri Lankan weaponry though it has to be said that it evolved and developed around the Kastane and that is the main thrust of the work and only recently was attention diverted to other items..these are welcome provided their inclusion is not a device to derail ... and we have dealt with the flail device in addition.

Insofar as my own writing format ~ I hope people can handle the idiosyncrasies of that because if they don't like the beginning nor the end... and don't like the middle, they always have the option of not reading it...though of course if I can develop a less aggressive style maybe they would.

Thank you for your post.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[David]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

This thread remains as ever an open conduit for all manner of Sri Lankan weaponry though it has to be said that it evolved and developed around the Kastane and that is the main thrust of the work and only recently was attention diverted to other items..these are welcome provided their inclusion is not a device to derail … and we have dealt with the flail device in addition.

Hopefully Ibrahiim, you can see that this thread "evolved and developed around the Kastane" almost solely under YOUR will and directions after Jim raised some questions about the weapon. It was certainly fair game for discussion at that point as the OPs original questions was about ALL Sri Lankan weapons. It is now the "main thrust of the work" mostly due to your own efforts to make it so. Some might see this as your own "device to derail" this thread. But threads grow as they may, organically and it is not really your place to decide what is or is not welcome regarding what Sri Lankan weapons other members may choose to discuss here simply because YOU want this thread to be mostly about the kastane.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by David

Hopefully Ibrahiim, you can see that this thread "evolved and developed around the Kastane" almost solely under YOUR will and directions after Jim raised some questions about the weapon. It was certainly fair game for discussion at that point as the OPs original questions was about ALL Sri Lankan weapons. It is now the "main thrust of the work" mostly due to your own efforts to make it so. Some might see this as your own "device to derail" this thread. But threads grow as they may, organically and it is not really your place to decide what is or is not welcome regarding what Sri Lankan weapons other members may choose to discuss here simply because YOU want this thread to be mostly about the kastane.

Salaams David, Perhaps I may ask you which direction you would like the thread to move in? The work presented at #214 could be one option? ..and that coupled with the ever present possibility that other weapons could be injected into the equation.

In that way we can accommodate your wishes and move the thread forward.

Threads as you note are organic and they go which way the wind is blowing..at this time some emphasis appears to be in the Kastane because it is the most interesting of Sri Lankan weapons and poses such a lot of questions because of its amazing history through three invading countries Portugal, Holland and Great Britain and tied to its own fabulous history and Buddhist/Hindu roots stretching back 4,000 years...Naturally other weapons may be presented and as they are.. then they can be examined.. as has been the flail sword device only a few posts back instigated by Ariel.

The martial arts weapon system in Sri Lanka, for example, contains dozens of blades but I reason that there is still much to do on the Kastane though I am ready as always to examine any weapon ...as always.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Jim McDougall]

Well said Ibrahiim, an excellent description of threads on this and many forums, that they may move in many directions, and that aspect is probably one of the most intriguing aspects of studying ethnographic arms. It is often surprising how many things might be factored in with the study of one weapon.
As David has pointed out, it was my question regarding kastanes that led to the ensuing discourse focused on the kastane as opposed to a broad discussion on Sri Lankan weapons. Aside from the piha kaetta, which has its own esoterica, these other weapons are not nearly as well known or familiar as the kastane, which is often considered in much of the literature as the 'national weapon of Ceylon'.

It is with this rather premiere status that the kastane tends to become one of the most distinct and recognizable arms of Sri Lanka, and that in addition to previous discussions in recent times that brought that particular weapon to the forefront here. I was glad to see Ariel bring in the other rather obscure weapon, which illustrates the point on how little is really known on most of the other weapons here. Virtually the only known focused article on the arms of Sri Lanka is by Derinayagala (I believe 1942).

I think it has been well determined that any other weapons from Sri Lanka that have anyones interest are welcome on this thread, as seen with Ariels well placed query, despite the fact that the title refers to 'swords'

I remain intrigued by the development of the kastane, though admittedly undecided as far as any particular standard for the representations in the motif, which is of course one of the elements of discussion. I believe there is good reason to further examine the Hasekura sword, with regard to trying to determine more on the earliest examples of the zoomorphic head hilt (much in the manner we look into katars, tulwars, and many others) .

Perhaps someone might enter in a piha kaetta or possibly some of the polearms here and that might broaden the discussion. Possibly there might be iconographic associations between motif on these and the kastane? Possibly motif on polearms might reflect influences?

I just noticed and had forgotten, the title of this thread is Sinhala/Sri Lankan Swords.....I had entirely forgotten that!
When I think of a Sri Lankan sword, it seems almost quintessant to think of the kastane. Certainly there were others far earlier as seen in the magnificent artwork by Prasanna, but are these well known enough for an in depth discussion? are there enough examples in collections to support an illustrative discussion?

It would seem the focus on kastane here developed because it is virtually the only Sri Lankan sword that has wide recognition and a well established scope of examples and development? While KuKulz queried further amidst the discussion asking about earlier types of Sri Lankan swords, the focus on kastane was simply resultant as no other entries pertaining to the other earlier forms was forthcoming. The question never addressed Sri Lankan arms in general.

I believe that Elgood noted that the 'gauntlet sword' or pata had some presence in Sri Lanka (this is also noted in Deraniyagala) . Does anyone have an example or reference to illustrate one of these?

Meanwhile I am trying to think of what other sword forms beyond those in the more ancient and historic period were used in Ceylon.