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16th January 2014, 09:44 AM
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#1 |
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Last edited by Gustav; 16th January 2014 at 09:54 AM. |
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16th January 2014, 03:26 PM
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#2 | |
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Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE
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Quote:
Salaams Gustav... For what its worth I have never seen two descriptions the same... and for that matter no two Kastane the same ...Here are a few from important museums collectors and specialists but there are scores more all placing into the rich descriptive mixture a host of different images. I think the description at your reference is fairly near the artistic licence required to balance the equation. It ought to be as it took me a while to write ! The Victoria and Albert Museum. Vand A;The kastane is the national sword of Sri Lanka. It typically has a short curved single-edged blade, double-edged at the point. The hilt comprises a knuckle-guard and down-turned quillons, each terminating in a dragon's head. The swords were intended to serve as badges of rank; the quality of ornamentation depending on the status of the wearer.The establishment of European trading contacts with South Asia by the late 16th and early 17th century led to these swords becoming fashionable dress accessories among European gentlemen. St Petersberg 1850…Mounted in heavily cast and chased silver-gilt, the hilt in traditional Sinhalese style elaborately decorated with guilloche, fluting and panels of engraved foliage and florets, with the pommel and quillon formed as the stylised heads of lions and the ogee-shaped knucklebow emerging at the quillon from the mouth of a beast and terminating at the pommel in the stylised head of a dragon, the eyes of all the beasts on the hilt formed of cabochon-cut garnets or rubies. Chrispties ~A SINHALESE SWORD (KASTANE) SRI LANKA, 18TH CENTURY With curved single-edged inscribed blade with single fuller along the back-edge on each side, the decoration with foliated scrolls, the wood and bronze hilt with applied silver and brass panels, the guard of characteristic form with openwork head of a mythical beast, the grip carved with scrollwork and with dragon's head pommel. Robert Elgood. From The earliest kastane of this form that can be accurately dated was taken to Japan in 1630 where it still exists. The form scarcely changes over the next two hundred years. The pommel is invariably decorated with the snub-nosed Sinhalese lion while the lion-like serapendiya is found on the quillon and guard ends. Most kastane blades were made locally but some utilise cut down European sword blades. Kastane were symbols of rank and later examples take the same form but are covered in sheet silver and inset with precious stones whilst the blades become ornamental. Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi. |
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16th January 2014, 05:55 PM
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#3 | |
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Keris forum moderator
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Nova Scotia
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Quote:
Pointing to your "important museums collectors and specialists", the first description (Victoria & Albert Museum) is describing the ends of the quillons as "dragon heads", not the pommel. Seems to me these quillon beasts are generally makara or serapendiya in most examples i've seen, but this entry says nothing of the pommel, which seems to be the point of the most heated discussions here. I'm afraid i have no idea what "St. Peterberg 1850" is supposed to be, but they clearly refer to the pommel as a stylized lion head just as so many others here have already maintained. It is again the quillon ends that are described as dragon heads and again, we here all seem to know better and recognize them as makara or serapendiya. Chrispties (i can only assume that you meant Christie's) is a renown auction house that sells any sort of antiques and other items of value. As such they are really more "generalists" than "specialists" and i have found that auction houses in general are notoriously misinformed on ethnographic edged weapons so i am not at all surprised that they would misidentify the kastane pommel as a dragon head. Auction houses are most concerned with getting the highest price possible for the items they auction. Accurate descriptions do not always factor into that equation. Robert Elgood's entry is really the only entry worthy of consideration here as it comes from an established and generally well received and excepted reference book on the subject of ethnographic weapons. Note that Elgood states that the pommel is invariably decorated with the snub-nosed Sinhalese lion, something which i believe at this point most of us seem to understand as true. I'm not sure where you want to take this thread at this point Ibrahiim, as long-standing members who have tried to stay with this discussion for so long begin to flee, but i think that at this point you are, to coin a phrase,"beating a dead gargoyle".  
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17th January 2014, 02:04 PM
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#4 | |
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Member
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Quote:
The Wikepedia link is by no means complete and it will mature as the detail comes in. I have planned a pictorial account though at the moment as you must surely appreciate there are conflicting Hilt styles as described ... and for example I can show a monster Hilt form and a Lion Hilt looking form... Right now, for example, I am looking at the two earlier extant variants which look like each being drawn from different Deities (the Japanese Museum and the art work of the Popham Armour)... maybe they were made in a different workshop and by different artists and with a slightly irregular idea in their minds of what Deity to fashion... artistic impression? On the various comments by auction houses I cannot fathom your criticism since I never said they were written in stone...these are simply descriptions..and there are many more examples ...which was the reason for their inclusion..as having added to the conundrum. The inclusion of the Russian source at St Petersburg is easy to comprehend but I will add to that to clarify where a sword thus marked has arrived from... see https://www.pinterest.com/karleighvestal/swords/. By the way, without wishing to jump to the defence of auction houses, these big outfits often have superb research departments and highly specialized people therein. Obviously the Elgood description is placed for accuracy but also to show the generic wording often used in the Kastane Hilt descriptions. In reference to links on Wikepedia I beg to differ Sir, since the finest reference to the developing story is of our own Forum and this thread. I don't think I am beating a dead horse moreover your comment may be misunderstood since we usually give constructive criticism and this is certainly not. The thread is progressing, albeit slowly, and as contributors we have a duty to expose the facts especially in an area so badly illuminated before. Regarding the term Gargoyle please simply type into web search the term Makara Gargoyle then after that is considered type in Lion Gargoyle..Do you not then think that Gargoyle is a reasonable descriptive? I would add the word Grotesque as well. The following are very recently added so how can you say the thread is not progressing? viz; 1.The excellent detail already exhumed plus the added details on "Rankadu Pattala" and the 1807 revelation that the sword was considered as a rank indicator are facts not well laid out before. 2.The detail on the Japanese Museum piece perhaps showing the blade mark now being traced is fascinating. 3.The Extraordinary blade possibly Storta is a delight to see... and ponder over. 4.The new picture of the Sri Lankan VIP wearing the Kastane is amazing. I still have the drive determination and effort to continue even if others have not for now... and in an effort to display encouragement to others ... members and non members alike I continue to shine a light into the dark corners of this subject. Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi. Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 18th January 2014 at 01:41 PM. |
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16th January 2014, 06:48 PM
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#5 |
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Arms Historian
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
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This discussion continues to become more fascinating, for me personally because it has returned me to research from over 15 years ago on the kasthane which I realize now was dramatically incomplete. I do recall the material on the Keicho mission and Hasekura, and I cannot thank Gustav enough for posting this keenly important data and those remarkably telling images.
Also important are the details about the connections to Ming China in the 15th century. Clearly Sri Lanka was a profoundly important trade center far back in history and the study of this history is extremely complex as well as essential in truly understanding the networks and influences involved here. The only data I have on the Hasekura reference is a news article of 1998 by Dr. de Silva of the National Museum. In this he notes some of the material mentioned in the articles posted by Gustav, and that there were a number of kasthane with carved ivory hilts (examples in the V&A in London and another in Belgium) which date from about 1415-67 . He describes the head as sinha (=lion), and this would set the terminus post quem for these hilts at least to c.1415 with sinha or lions heads. With regard to the blade on the Hasekura kasthane I think Ibrahiim has made a remarkable suggestion, that this is either an Italian storta blade or one heavily influenced by them. As has been noted, this blade shape which is relatively broad and with a peak and yelman toward the tip is very much like Chinese dao blades, however these are typically later. What seems plausible is the blade profile seen on this example, which is set in the period of the Hasekura mission (returned to Japan 1620) is of Venetian storta shape . The markings, the crowned N in particular , appear to be in an Italian 'style' and at the forte, the blocked ricasso form seems quite evident on Italian swords. With this I checked "Armi Bianchi Italiene" (Boccia & Coelho, Milan, 1975) and as I opened to #386, I was stunned as I viewed that example of storta with virtually the same blade, and examples #387 and #388 all the same and all had either human or zoomorphic lion heads. These are shown as rm Venice c.1550-54. The hilts are simple 'S' guard (opposed up and down quillons) but essentially the same system as the kastane without the central downturned quillons at the blade. As Anthony North well explained in his 1975 article ("A Late 15th Century Italian Sword", Connoisseuer Dec 1975 p.239) these Italian swords are remarkably linked to the nimchas of North Africa and as far east as Ceylon as he cites Charles Buttin ("Les Poignards et les Sabres Marocains", Hesperis, Tome XXVI, 1939) who drew the same theories. Clearly Sri Lanka was well known from far earlier times and referred to as Taprobane by the Greeks, later Serandib by the Arabs and by 1505 Ceilao by the Portuguese. The range of trade with Venice is well known as well, as well as their contacts with China, Arabs, India, North Africa etc. and as we have seen, the Ming dynasty was linked with Ceylon as early as the 15th century. I am tempted to consider the remarkable similarities of the dragon like 'fu dogs' or lions in China, though admittedly a free association thought which comes to mind as we factor in China here. We also have the possibility of provenance examples of lion head pommel kasthane as early as 15th c. (as mentioned by deSilva in his 1998 article). We now see a blade of clearly storta form deriving from Venice, whether fitered through from China or direct contact and from mid 16th century. We cannot help but wonder if perhaps these European zoomorphic hilts might have derived from oriental influences rather than vice versa. I think here the key point of our discussion is the general hilt form of the sword we know as the kasthane and its development. It is clear that the stylized monster or zoomorphic pommel head has experienced dramatic license in the profoundly wide range of these hilts, and as J.F Pieris ("A Royal Dagger from Ceylon", Connoisseur, 1938. p.24) has observed the mystical creatures portrayed on the elements of these hilts, in this case referring primarily to the serepediya, the decorative qualities have been freely exploited by the artisans. Therefore I would recommend once again that we continue the discussion with focus more on the development on the sword form itself, and that the nature or identification of the creatures represented be confined to each variant example itself. We should avoid broad assertions on the nature of these decorative elements concerning the kasthane overall, especially considering the volatility of the geopolitical status of Sri Lanka through so many centuries of history, as well as the well clouded circumstances of colonial intervention . Addendum: In further looking through Boccia & Coelho, the basic structure of these hilts in Italy becomes apparent in examples of storta and early schiavona (c. 1480-1500) with upward and downward quillons on crossguard and branched upswept knuckleguard. The inner 'crab claw' type appendages which become entirely vestigial on the kastane hilts in general seem to reflect these from a number of Italian and even Nasrid hist types. Most of the Italian examples I viewed were those of mid to end of 16th c. but the shiavona type carries back to c.1480, so the quillon system seems quite old, but essentially Italian. Re: the markings, the use of capital M with cross and orb over it occurred and the flueret design used with it similar to many quillon terminals seen. DeSilva noted that Thom Richardson stated he thought the letter on the Hasekura blade indicated ownership rather than a makers mark. Last edited by Jim McDougall; 16th January 2014 at 10:52 PM. Reason: adding details |
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17th January 2014, 03:03 AM
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#6 |
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Member
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Location: between work and sleep
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This thread rapidly went down an interesting path.
I would like to add to Jim's post with the fact that this thread is intended for not just kastane, but also all other Sri Lankan sword forms. I think there were narrow "cutlass" with "d-guards" that were more common in more recent times, and various ancient forms... but my knowledge of all this is very limited. And, it is my impression, correct me if I'm wrong, that especially in the latter days of the kastane, it was less of an actually widespread fighting weapon than a symbol of rank, authority, and status... and the quality of the blade declined... where-as other sword forms were more popular in the days that swords (and spear, bow, cudgel..) were widespread and popular weapons in Sri Lanka... |
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17th January 2014, 02:14 PM
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#7 | |
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Quote:
Salaams KuKulzA28 Yes it is an interesting path and I am very grateful you opened the door to it. I had been studying Kastane for quite some time previously and your opener seemed to me a reasonable opportunity to examine this weapon though as you quite rightly note there are other weapons worth looking at ... though again as you say we went off down the Kastane path twisting and turning. In fact I noted in looking at Martial Arts weapons cutlass forms incorporating the Kastane style blade being used though it seems they came about post Portuguese. There are scores of weapons in the Ancient Martial Art format in Sri Lanka..Angampora. I'm certain other weapons can be added like the Piha Keatta clearly of similar design structure and other swords and weapons ~ spears n' guns. Feel free since this is your thread ...Lets do it ! Thank you for your post. Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi
Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 17th January 2014 at 02:45 PM. |
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17th January 2014, 02:40 PM
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#8 | |
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Quote:
Salaams Jim, Your post is as always brilliantly laid out and full of the most interesting and well researched notes... I wish my library was half as good. I am pleased my Storta revelation was as interesting to you as it was to me as I almost fell off my chair !! You may recall it appears on the North African thread...with as it happens in the same picture as the blade ~a Lions Head. How interesting ~it could be that lions head and other similar pommels may have been produced in Sri Lanka before the arrival of the Portuguese... and of course the staggering likeness of the Storta blades of Venice...both in the straighter broad form and the short curved variants... and the quillon and guard arrangements. The possibilities are mind boggling ! Last point next...The blade mark M according to your classic thread could be from Juan Martinez Menchaca..if in fact it is an M ... If its an N I have no idea! I wondered if the Japanese writing under the picture was descriptive of the makers/owners mark? In comparing early hilts I had hoped we could look at the artwork of the Popham and the actual hilt in the Japanese variant since these are two of the oldest available items and draw some comparisons. Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi. |
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17th January 2014, 09:19 PM
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#9 |
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Arms Historian
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I think my last post was a bit too long, and it is difficult to wade through that much data.
Regarding the storta blade matter. This is based on the images posted by Gustav in post #187 from the article on the Hasekura blade c.1620. This reveals that this particular example has a blade of storta form with peak near the tip much as also seen on other similar examples such as from China . We cannot conclude that the blade form became universal, but it does suggest contact with trade from either Venice or China in that blade. The markings are from the same post, #187 and it is distinctly an 'N' and similar to such markings on some Italian blades . As DeSilva noted in 1998, Thom Richardson suggests this would have likely been an owners mark. The Japanese writing probably does refer to the nature of these marks. I agree that close up views of the Popham hilt in comparison to this hilt would be beneficial to the discussion. |
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18th January 2014, 12:04 AM
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#10 |
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Member
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Posts: 1,280
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Popham's kastane
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18th January 2014, 07:46 AM
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#11 |
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Member
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Salaams All,
Thank you Gustav for excellent picture of the artwork of the Popham Armour. In comparing the Popham and Japanese variants I suggest that the two forms whilst emanating from a similar thought process by two very different artists even operating out of different Royal Workshops... is conveyed to the finished article with a great degree of artistic licence... The one being big cat Lion influence and the other perhaps a mythical beast form, perhaps the Serapendiya or the Makara but certainly evidenced by other mythical lesser Deities on the rest of the Hilt... smaller Makara or Naga types. The tail of the artwork at Popham spilling over lavishly onto the rainguard and scabbard region in foliate, fish-tail or peacock form. The entire form taking on occasional anthropomorphic attribute when joined with the half crocodile/ half human face to the hand guard and occasionally even seen with the face of another monster at/between the crossguard..The Kirtimukha. Again regarding the main hilt subjects I cite artistic licence as we are after all looking at a painting on one hand and an artesans interpretation on the other... On the Popham, therefor, the description of mythical serpent form seems to fit better than a Lion style of interpretation.. though some may indicate an apparent mane which others view as scales or simply part of the myriad of devices contained on this multiple animal myth. On the Japanese Museum item the hilt is more clearly viewed as a big cat... The Lion form quite obvious. Lesser deities appear as finials on the cross guard and hand guard and on the perhaps Pseudo Quillons which appear uncannily like Vajra finials; hardly surprising, however, since the Hindu Buddhist influence is huge on this hilt. The blade is incredible. Not only in its straight broad shape but in its apparent likeness to the Venice Storta style. As yet no one has translated the Japanese detail defining what the stamp is... and it could be a makers or a stamp of ownership. The squiggle form is not known but may be a wolf mark done locally but not yet identified ?...nor translated..Significantly there is some sort of carving at the blade viewed as perhaps another monster or "gargoyle" and similar to the usual batch of varied possibilities. Artistically drawn it could be any of them. The two forms perhaps indicate that each Kastane weapon be viewed quite on its own merit since there are clear differences in interpretation of the two early forms thus this is bound to be complicated... even compounded in the later centuries. It is even doubtful that the precise creature can be identified (the main subject on the hilt), though, I think upon the minor deities we are a lot clearer. Lost also in the fog of time is the amazing discovery of potential Venetian Storta influence and perhaps it can only be considered as that... influence .. yet that is important. In part the closeness of the dates of the transition to Japan and the involvement in the Indian Ocean of the Portuguese in Sri Lanka lends me to posit that the Royal Workshops could have worked in unison with Portuguese weapon makers in the earlier years. The anecdotal evidence may support Royal Workshop involvement in the peculiar rank identity of officials wearing a certain quality of Kastane and though noted as 1807 may have been done earlier. Naturally having had three invader countries ravaging the country it is not surprising to be confronted with such a fog. Undoing the facts from fiction was never going to be easy. I am sure however that we have added much to the subject and apologies to those who have viewed the proceedings as somewhat stormy. Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi.
Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 18th January 2014 at 02:08 PM. |
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