Sinhala / Sri Lankan Swords?

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by SwordsAntiqueWeapons

Dear Ibrahiim,

The Lions could have Elephant tails or be blowing bubbles from there tails, the tail is not present in the icons of the Kastane we discuss.
Equally the Makara could have a sheeps tail, it matters not as no Makara's tail is not present in the icons of the Kastane pommel we discuss.

The lion icons throughout India and surrounding countries are a far more accurate in appearance to the Kastane pommel than any Makara within the world is.

No one is denying you the right that Makara emit deities but these Kastane pommels are not emitting anything but tongues and teeth, hardly Makara Makara Deities. No one is denying the importance of place the Makara holds in the culture.



The clouded prism you note is based on the icons known and the importance known thousands of years, not what details are NOT seen in the icons of your suggestions that it is a Makara.

As visual historically important icons do not support your argument that the pommel is based on an the Makara, the point is rather empty. Why not suggest the hilt is Shiva the god of gods, Shiva is more important than any Makara and has as little visual similarities. No one is saying the Makara is reduced in any way throughout time but it is not carried in the Pommel of a Kastane.

To answer your question, I see nothing spewing forth from the Nepal Lions mouth. Lions do not do this, nor do the Pommels of Kastane show this.

Question to you; Please show me something other than a tongue and teeth issuing forth from the pommel of a Kastane.
Question; Why was the mountain of Sigiriya not carved as a Makara. Note the Buddhists who were present here without it being a Makara.
Question; When did the Makara become so distorted that it come to look like all the Lion icons in the lands.

My advice to you is obtain every known image of the Makara and do the same with the lions Leogrypgh, Yali (simha-vyala) and start a checklist of the traits and qualities within these icons and you will see clearly on the paper in front of you that the Makara falls well short of being presented on the Pommel of the Kastane.

Gavin

Salaams SwordsAntiqueWeapons . Almost every Kastane illustrates a "geometric style" peacock tail and absolutely where there is a cross-guard, hand guard and "pseudo" quillons ... secondary deities shown having been emitted from the main subject on the hilt... The Makara.

The minor deities crawl, slither or appear as the human face on the hand-guard as the humano/crocodile mythical creature already on thread at #56 .

I note that further regurgitations occur from the miniature looking Makara especially on the handguard though the cross guard and Vagra finials appear to depict Nagas.

The Nagas and or secondary mini Makara appear on the hand- guard and cross-guard finials and swooping over the guard onto the pseudo quillons appearing as finials on the Vagra tips. That is where the tail appears dressing usually the triangular rain-guard arrangement, sometimes, even flowing over onto and down the blade throat itself. Finally on the scabbard at the drag chape there is occasionally another monster emitting another deity...or perhaps fire.

My plan is to show Makara with the tails of Peacocks since that is how the Buddhist religion shows their form. This is illustrated in Kastane Hilts etc in the following posts on this thread; 25, 52, 56, 71(Gunbutt), 78(door support), 115(Vagra),101,139, 147,150, 153.

The Peacock tail is the form created onto the Makara by the religious structure Buddhism. Fact. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Makara_...u_mythology%29

I will now illustrate peacock tails on the artistic "impressions" of this ancient mythical creature.

Pictures below indicate the importance of understanding the essential ingredient... The Tail...in Peacock form of the Makara.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams All... Once more ... The Kastane hilt. Confirming the peacock tail thus the hilt of Makara form. Showing minor Deities ...having been spewed forth onto the guards and pseudo quillons even displayed as also emitting minor deities themselves since perhaps the artist is conveying mini Makara as well. Illustrating the Vagra Buddhist link and finally the monster at the tip of the scabbard mirroring the general concept of supporting deities in this sword based on the foundation mythical creature the Makara forming the hilt.

[Gavin Nugent]

Dear Ibrahiim,

I can appreciate your position on the subject I can but in the icons present above, none from antiquity show the form of the pommel.

I do concur the line drawing does but it doesn't look to be very old and the reference of its source is not forthcoming for better digestion.

Gavin

[Gavin Nugent]

Dear Ibrahiim,

I see no feathers or peacock plumage of any kind in the images you provide...
Equally, in relation to a scabbard tip shown, I have had Kastane scabbards carved in the style of an elephant trunk...

Gavin

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by SwordsAntiqueWeapons

Dear Ibrahiim,

I see no feathers or peacock plumage of any kind in the images you provide...
Equally, in relation to a scabbard tip shown, I have had Kastane scabbards carved in the style of an elephant trunk...

Gavin

Salaams SwordsAntiqueWeapons ~If you consider The Makara in several stages of development you will note that its morphs according to which phase it is in...See below that it sometimes portrays the elephant form... so it is not surprising that you may have seen an elephant deployed in the scabbard... It is the way the artesan portrayed it..in stage 5 of its potential development...simple enough?

In similar ways the Deity is often portrayed with fish scales and a peacock tail...

Traditionally, a Makara is considered to be an aquatic mythical creature. Makara has been depicted typically as half animal half fish. Some traditional accounts identify it with a crocodile, specifically Gharial because of its long extended snout. It is depicted with the forequarters of an elephant and the hindquarters as a fish tail. Crocodile was also a form which was used in the earlier days which was shown with a human body.

In many temples, the depiction is in the form of half fish or seal with head of an elephant. It is also shown with head and jaws resembling a crocodile, an elephant trunk with scales of fish and a peacock tail. Other accounts identify it with Gangetic Dolphin having striking resemblances with the latter, now found mainly in Vikramshila Gangetic Dolphin Sanctuary. Others portray it as a fish body with an elephant's head. The tradition identifies the makara with water, the source of all existence and fertility.

In the medieval era of South India, Makara was shown as a fifth stage of development, symbolized in the form of an elephant head and body with an elaborately foliated fish tail. Most myths maintain this symbolism of this stage in the evolution of life.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams All. Moving forward... It is interesting that the iconic weapon Kastane (now the National Sword of Sri Lanka) appears to have little or no blade markings... marks of high quality blades often seen on Portuguese swords are absent on these weapons. Why?

It struck me that...No Kastane has ever turned up with a properly marked/ stamped blade ... particularly odd since the Portuguese were good at that. So what are these things about? I suggest:

1. Court Swords... Popham Armour, Jewel encrusted gold and silver inlaid...
2. Presentration Swords.. Japanese Delegation and in their Museum ...
3. VIP swords for the Sri Lankan landed gentry...see below.
4. Religious Icons... The Buddhist Vagra and Makara. Defender of the faith ...of Buddhism that is. Thus never a weapon. A religious Icon.
5. Defenders of the owners via myth and superstition because of its Deities.... It is Talismanic per se.
6. Added in retrospect ...Badges of rank of the wearer.

The blade is not marked nor stamped for excellence ...the blade is not for fighting... the enriched ruby encrusted gilded hilt would never be wielded in a fight ... a kind of a reverse engineering twist; in the same way that a crucifix or perhaps the cross and orb artifact wouldn't be used as a weapon to club someone to death!!..Neither would this be used as a dagger/ sword in a fight.. since this would dishonour the religion.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams All ~Makara. Some notes.

Only Varuna, the lord of the sky and the sea, the spiritual ruler of the world has power over the Makara. The Makara is Varuna’s vehicle in Hindu mythology. As most Karavas in southern Sri Lanka belong to the Karava Varunakulasuriya (Warunakulasuriya) clan, the symbolism is extremely interesting. In mythology Varuna is the chief of the Adithyas. Remnants of the name Adithya from the medieval period can still be found in Karava family names and the Nagadipa inscription of King Parakramabahu I mentions Chandraditya (Chandra + Adithya, Moon & Sun - quoted in Sakala Sinhala Chakrawarthi page 25). As Adithya is a synonym for Suriya (ie. the Sun). the Karava clan Varunakulasuriya too signifies Varuna-Adithya.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Gustav]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

It struck me that...No Kastane has ever turned up with a properly marked/ stamped blade ... particularly odd since the Portuguese were good at that.

2. Presentration Swords.. Japanese Delegation and in their Museum ...

The Kastane in Sendai Museum, which you mention here, most probably the oldest Kastane with a proper provenance, has clear markings on its blade.

[/QUOTE]4. Religious Icons... The Buddhist Vagra and Makara. Defender of the faith ...of Buddhism that is. Thus never a weapon. A religious Icon.
5. Defenders of the owners via myth and superstition because of its Deities.... It is Talismanic per se.[/QUOTE]

Weapons with religious symbols on blades or fittings and of talismanic value are nothing of rarity. Actually the ties between religion and warfare are quite obvious and fundamental.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Gustav

The Kastane in Sendai Museum, which you mention here, most probably the oldest Kastane with a proper provenance, has clear markings on its blade.



Weapons with religious symbols on blades or fittings and of talismanic value are nothing of rarity. Actually the ties between religion and warfare are quite obvious and fundamental.

Salaams Gustav, Thank you for your input which is very interesting ... .. Your point on religious links to battle swords is understood. My point is I have no records nor have any surfaced as yet of blades with stamps or markings, which, for a blade said to have possibly been made in a joint Portuguese Sri Lankan workshop is odd. At any rate my comment is purely speculative in this regard as you will note it is only a suggestion..but your post is excellent and inspires a look into the Japanese presentation item.

I note one web author who says Quote''The blades were initially of mediocre quality until blades made in Europe began to be used. Many of the blades bear East India Company trademark.'' Unquote. Does that mean that before the British arrived blades were inferior... I find this very interesting if true?

Here is the weapon you speak of.. I cant see a blade mark but assume an European blade here...see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hasekura_Tsunenaga

Described as; Indonesian kris and Ceylonese dagger (acquired in the Philippines), presented by Hasekura to Date Masamune upon his return; Sendai City Museum

Pictures of swords said to have been acquired in the Philippines and dated map of his travels. 1620 being key; Given the weapons at that time in the Philippines.



Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams All Note to Library Anecdotal note:
Kastana

The national sword of Ceylon. Typically a short curved single-edged watered blade, double-edged at the point. The hilt comprises a knuckle-guard and down-turned quillons, each terminating in a dragon's head with large in-set eyes. The dragon's head is usually decorated throughout with gold or silver panels and the pommel with tongue is formed from a piece of wood or red coral. The dragon's mane trails down the grip and is decorated with silver and gilt repousse floral designs. The entire hilt is often made of silver or gold and even inlaid with jewels. The blade close to the hilt is decorated with floral or thatched designs. The scabbard is made from wood and is covered with embossed and chased silver worked with flowers with leafy borders and richly ornamental.
The swords were intended to serve as badges of rank. Rev. James Cordiner in 1807 wrote that everyone in office wears a sword with a silver hilt and scabbard. These swords were made in the Royal workshops known as the "Rankadu Pattala" or "golden sword workshop" and the quality of the piece always depended on the rank of the wearer. I isolate those 2 points viz;


1. These swords were made in the Royal workshops known as the "Rankadu Pattala" or "golden sword workshop"

2. The quality of the piece always depended on the rank of the wearer.


Although the Rev. James Cordiner actually describes the Monster as a Tiger(!!) he does go on to say ~ Quote."The design and workmanship exhibited in these decorations are distinguishing badges of the particular rank of the wearer.”Unquote.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Prasanna Weerakkody]

The old post seem to be dragging on once again but with the same old (what I thought was now a long dead) argument. I think I would not even try to convince Mr. Balooshi as he is fixed on his idea that the Kasthana pommel is Makara despite all the evidence presented and Mr. Balooshi seems totally unable to even examine and see objectively the points presented. Balooshi It would be good if you would kindly go through the thread again. most of these points you still throw around have been answered before.

Being from Sri Lanka- the Kasthana is part of my living heritage. I understand it standing within the culture which originated it and still survive. I see the Sinhala Makara and Lion and other mythical beasts in that context - there is no mistake the pommel is of a Lion head. It is also backed by the surviving sword lore and is even mentioned in ancient craft manuals like the “Vyjayantha thanthra” The Kasthana is known as the Lion hilted sword. There is not even a shard of doubt about the identity of the beast on the pommel.

As I said earlier there are Makara and Serapendiya figures depicted on other parts of the Kasthana hilt but the pommel is always a Lion head.

If you need to drag along this further may be you should look at depictions of Makara and Lion in Sinhala motifs instead of regional as there are some differences. Regional references don’t always tally up with Sinhala traditional art and motifs. bringing in a mixed hodge-podge of all sorts of creatures that don’t have a place in a Sinhala context is only adding to the confusion.

As I mentioned before there are two main classes of Kasthana swords- the earlier dated Kasthana with good blades and Silver, metal, Horn or wooden hilts were true fighting weapons. I had listed historic texts that document use of Kasthana swords in battle dating back to mid 16th Century. (Balooshi-please go back and check that). The Golden hilts with excessive jewels with the “dog-faced” Lion hilts and inferior blades were mostly just presentation swords used by Sinhala Mudelliers and Arachchis under Dutch and British administrations.

The religious Iconography used is as auspicious symbols to bring luck and protection to the warrior- Theravada Buddhism does not use weapons as religious Icons.

No new material seem to be forthcoming and only old ideas are being re-shuffled. It is funny that everyone else is able to identify Lions from Makara heads with the exception of Mr. Balooshi.

[Gustav]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

My point is I have no records nor have any surfaced as yet of blades with stamps or markings, which, for a blade said to have possibly been made in a joint Portuguese Sri Lankan workshop is odd. At any rate my comment is purely speculative in this regard as you will note it is only a suggestion..but your post is excellent and inspires a look into the Japanese presentation item.

Here is the weapon you speak of.. I cant see a blade mark but assume an European blade here...see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hasekura_Tsunenaga

Described as; Indonesian kris and Ceylonese dagger (acquired in the Philippines), presented by Hasekura to Date Masamune upon his return; Sendai City Museum

Pictures of swords said to have been acquired in the Philippines and dated map of his travels. 1620 being key; Given the weapons at that time in the Philippines.

Dear Ibrahim,

regarding the information from Wikipedia regarding the travel of Hasekura Tsunenaga and acquisition of the weapons:

Actually he was leaving Spain in June 1617, so the 1616 on the map from wikipedia is a mistake.

The only scholar publications I am aware, which raise the question about provenance of keris and kastane are "A fundamental study on Hasekura's kastane and kris" (Bulletin of Sendai City Museum) and "The kastane and the kris, their arrival in Japan in 1620" (in Royal Armouries Yearbook, vol. 3, Leeds), both written by Sasaki Kazuhiro, curator of Sendai City Museum, in 1998. Before there are only two publications of Sendai City Museum from 1988 and 1995.

Sasaki Kazuhiro has the oppinion, both keris and kastane are presented to Hasekura Tsunenaga by Philip III. Here in short he's points and other interesting details:

Among the 52 mementos that Hasekura brought to Japan, only three were presented to Date clan: portrait of Pope Paul V, kastane and keris.

Date Masamune drafted official letters only to Pope, the mayor of Sevilla and King Philipp III.

Masamune allowed Hasekura to take care of all official contacts with dignitaries in other countries.

Masamune obviously had great interest in the messages and gifts these figures bestoved on Hasekura.

Then Sasaki Kazuhiro writes:

"If we suppose Masamune requested only the articles from the three men he deemed most critical, then the two swords should have come from one of these three men. (...) it seems much more likely the Namban swords were a gift from Philipp III. This would also explain the reason these gifts made their way to the Masamune collection, while presents from dignitaries in other locales were allowed to remain in the Hasekura collection.

(...) Certainly, Philipp III knew Date Masamune would be pleased with the presentation of the swords, as he had been presented eight armours and one sword by Shogun Tokugawa Hidetada and the former Shogun Tokugawa Ieyasu as a sign of friendship between the two countries. Howewer, he could not present Spanish arms to Date Masamune because the presentation of Spanish arms to a foreigner was then prohibited by law."

Here are the detail pictures of this kastane. The blade of it is the only straight one I have seen fitted as a Kastane and is a very interesting one. There are two markings on this blade, and one of them clearly is of christian origin, yet I suppose, we could conclude with some certainty that the whole blade isn't made in Europe. Curiously enough, its decoration and fullering reminds me of some chinese swords, like the one in book of Robert Hales, page 197; - yet the chinese blades of this type are (always?) slightly curved.

It is perhaps not widely known, yet Sri Lanka was nominally a vasal state of the Ming Imperium from 1411 on, and sent three more ambassys to China, 1436, 1445 and 1459.

Regarding the central pommel figure, it almost always is clearly a lion indeed. There is a fair amount of objects made of ivory from Sri Lanka, which entered the european "Kunstkammer" collections at the end of the 16 century. Lion always plays a prominent character and is stylistically very close to the pommel figure of this kastane. The one depicted was acquired before 1542.

And here a link to the post of Prasanna Weerakkody, which is quite informative indeed:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...9&postcount=23

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Gustav

Dear Ibrahim,

regarding the information from Wikipedia regarding the travel of Hasekura Tsunenaga and acquisition of the weapons:

Actually he was leaving Spain in June 1617, so the 1616 on the map from wikipedia is a mistake.

The only scholar publications I am aware, which raise the question about provenance of keris and kastane are "A fundamental study on Hasekura's kastane and kris" (Bulletin of Sendai City Museum) and "The kastane and the kris, their arrival in Japan in 1620" (in Royal Armouries Yearbook, vol. 3, Leeds), both written by Sasaki Kazuhiro, curator of Sendai City Museum, in 1998. Before there are only two publications of Sendai City Museum from 1988 and 1995.

Sasaki Kazuhiro has the oppinion, both keris and kastane are presented to Hasekura Tsunenaga by Philip III. Here in short he's points and other interesting details:

Among the 52 mementos that Hasekura brought to Japan, only three were presented to Date clan: portrait of Pope Paul V, kastane and keris.

Date Masamune drafted official letters only to Pope, the mayor of Sevilla and King Philipp III.

Masamune allowed Hasekura to take care of all official contacts with dignitaries in other countries.

Masamune obviously had great interest in the messages and gifts these figures bestoved on Hasekura.

Then Sasaki Kazuhiro writes:

"If we suppose Masamune requested only the articles from the three men he deemed most critical, then the two swords should have come from one of these three men. (...) it seems much more likely the Namban swords were a gift from Philipp III. This would also explain the reason these gifts made their way to the Masamune collection, while presents from dignitaries in other locales were allowed to remain in the Hasekura collection.

(...) Certainly, Philipp III knew Date Masamune would be pleased with the presentation of the swords, as he had been presented eight armours and one sword by Shogun Tokugawa Hidetada and the former Shogun Tokugawa Ieyasu as a sign of friendship between the two countries. Howewer, he could not present Spanish arms to Date Masamune because the presentation of Spanish arms to a foreigner was then prohibited by law."

Here are the detail pictures of this kastane. The blade of it is the only straight one I have seen fitted as a Kastane and is a very interesting one. There are two markings on this blade, and one of them clearly is of christian origin, yet I suppose, we could conclude with some certainty that the whole blade isn't made in Europe. Curiously enough, its decoration and fullering reminds me of some chinese swords, like the one in book of Robert Hales, page 197; - yet the chinese blades of this type are (always?) slightly curved.

It is perhaps not widely known, yet Sri Lanka was nominally a vasal state of the Ming Imperium from 1411 on, and sent three more ambassys to China, 1436, 1445 and 1459.

Regarding the central pommel figure, it almost always is clearly a lion indeed. There is a fair amount of objects made of ivory from Sri Lanka, which entered the european "Kunstkammer" collections at the end of the 16 century. Lion always plays a prominent character and is stylistically very close to the pommel figure of this kastane. The one depicted was acquired before 1542.

And here a link to the post of Prasanna Weerakkody, which is quite informative indeed:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...9&postcount=23

Salaams Gustav, That is so brilliant. I cannot thank you enough for this excellent supporting detail. Not only finely written but the excellent pictures are so helpful in this discussion. Thank you Sir !

Pictures 3, 4, 5, appear to display 3. Lion. 4.Serapendiya. 5.Makara.

The marks on the blade will have us diving for the books!

The Hilt form comprises the Gargoyle style influenced by the mythical Lion, Makara or other ancient Buddhist Deities with supporting smaller dragons, miniature Makara or Nagas on the finials thereafter.

Blade form...The blade marks to one side for a moment.. I have to say my first impression on blade shape is not Sri Lankan but Chinese..which begs the question ...Were the Chinese importing Kastane or exporting the form? They were certainly involved as you point out... and we know the trade patterns of Chinese junks even to the Red Sea...Did the Kastane now in the Japanese Museum arrive in the Philipines by Chinese ship. If it was delivered to the Philipines which way did it come from? Was it brought from Sri Lanka direct or via the long way round across the Atlantic?

The Spanish East Indies were ruled as part of the Viceroyalty of New Spain and administered from Mexico City from 1565 to 1821.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.