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13th January 2014, 01:47 PM
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#1 |
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Dear Ibrahiim,
Yes I do mean the Kastane pommel and grip is that of Lion's face...whether in the Yali lion-headed (simha-vyala), LEO(lion)gryph or just plain lion it is unknown...it is not Makara. The Kastane pommel spits nothing from its mouth...why is it in your eyes a Makara when nothing spits from its mouth despite you claiming it does? The quillons and knuckle bows do not spew forth from the Pommel's mouth. The Kastane pommel is to my eye more the Sardula or the Yali Simha-Vyala, a more lion like creature but when there is a Makara spewing forth a knuckle bow with another head the same as the pommel, the Leogryph comes to mind based on the ancient ivory carvings in the Afghanistan museum that show the Leogryph coming forth from a Makara's mouth. The Lion in most important in Hindu cutlure from top to bottom of the land. While I will not weigh dieties against dieties for importance, the pommel is of Lion type, the Lion being highly regarded througout time within these lands.. Here is a very good representation of a Hindu Lion guardian from Nepal; http://stockfresh.com/image/566878/h...-guardian-lion I am sure you can see such a likeness that it is uncanny. If you think the lion is of little relevence, please read this; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sigiriya Gavin |
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13th January 2014, 02:42 PM
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#2 | |
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Quote:
Salaams SwordsAntiqueWeapons; At your first reference You are right in considering (as I have done) the lions in Nepal which if you look carefully you will see that they do not have peacock tails nor do they emit deities all around. I have included a further picture which shows the tails of these beasts which are entirely of a different traditional icon... The Lion. Not the Makara. Note the tails! At your second reference there is a small note ONLY viz; Quote "There was a sculpted lion's head above the legs and paws flanking the entrance, but the head broke down many years ago" Unquote. Lions Gate though relatively important to Sinhalese culture in no way overshadows the vital detail of the Makara... They are entirely different issues. The business of deciding if the Kastane has a Makara or Lion hilt is vital in the understanding of its origins..and I have a duty to prove the truth irrespective of spurious counter claims from whatever quarter. It is a well known fact that dealers in Kastane rather than grasp the nettle over this conundrum of Makara versus Lion prefer to "sit on the fence" in their description and would rather put Makara or Lion ..When in fact it is a purely Makara deity. The history books, traditional, cultural and religious backup are all present in my posts ... It is proven in my opinion; Makara emit deities... it is their role. The other deities including the crocodile human faced deity on the hand guard and other serpents ~possibly miniature Makaras and Nagas issued from the mouth of the hilt "subject" with the peacock tail and adorning the cross guard and pseudo quillon ends (Vagra). It is a Makara Hilt. If it was a lion would it have a peacock tail? No. You are simply looking at this through another prism. It would seem to be rather cloudy. I have backed up my arguement with solid facts drawn from many angles using pictures and detail across a swathe of structures from art form, literature, mythological inclusion, history, archeology, artefacts, jewelery, religion, tradition and ethnographic arms... yet still you do not agree. because you think it doesn't look like it.. and you appear to see something else. What about the precise argument offered here? Perhaps you think that the hilt is of some other mysterious form? Moreover, having based your assumptions on entirely the wrong conclusions you may never join up the wires because your structure cannot match the theory of how this hilt was designed onto the weapon or by whom or when. The Karvara kingdom would have to have reduced the Makara to near insignificance to have it overtaken by the Yali and some strange maneuvering to have the wrong mythical beast emit minor monsters ...and to give the wrong creature a peacock tail??.. it makes no sense. Perhaps you may not have considered the religious inclusion of the Vagra in the design of the pseudo quillon structures? Do you not think that being blessed with Vagra finials that this Hilt would therefor need to be religiously correct? My advice to you is to read the thread again. Picture below in the same Nepalese square of the Lions with ...Lions Tails. Incidentally do you see any other deities being spewed forth from their mouths...? Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi. Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 13th January 2014 at 03:20 PM. |
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13th January 2014, 08:33 PM
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#3 |
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Dear Ibrahiim,
The Lions could have Elephant tails or be blowing bubbles from there tails, the tail is not present in the icons of the Kastane we discuss. Equally the Makara could have a sheeps tail, it matters not as no Makara's tail is not present in the icons of the Kastane pommel we discuss. The lion icons throughout India and surrounding countries are a far more accurate in appearance to the Kastane pommel than any Makara within the world is. No one is denying you the right that Makara emit deities but these Kastane pommels are not emitting anything but tongues and teeth, hardly Makara Makara Deities. No one is denying the importance of place the Makara holds in the culture. The clouded prism you note is based on the icons known and the importance known thousands of years, not what details are NOT seen in the icons of your suggestions that it is a Makara. As visual historically important icons do not support your argument that the pommel is based on an the Makara, the point is rather empty. Why not suggest the hilt is Shiva the god of gods, Shiva is more important than any Makara and has as little visual similarities. No one is saying the Makara is reduced in any way throughout time but it is not carried in the Pommel of a Kastane. To answer your question, I see nothing spewing forth from the Nepal Lions mouth. Lions do not do this, nor do the Pommels of Kastane show this. Question to you; Please show me something other than a tongue and teeth issuing forth from the pommel of a Kastane. Question; Why was the mountain of Sigiriya not carved as a Makara. Note the Buddhists who were present here without it being a Makara. Question; When did the Makara become so distorted that it come to look like all the Lion icons in the lands. My advice to you is obtain every known image of the Makara and do the same with the lions Leogrypgh, Yali (simha-vyala) and start a checklist of the traits and qualities within these icons and you will see clearly on the paper in front of you that the Makara falls well short of being presented on the Pommel of the Kastane. Gavin |
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14th January 2014, 07:13 AM
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#4 | |
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Quote:
The minor deities crawl, slither or appear as the human face on the hand-guard as the humano/crocodile mythical creature already on thread at #56 . I note that further regurgitations occur from the miniature looking Makara especially on the handguard though the cross guard and Vagra finials appear to depict Nagas. The Nagas and or secondary mini Makara appear on the hand- guard and cross-guard finials and swooping over the guard onto the pseudo quillons appearing as finials on the Vagra tips. That is where the tail appears dressing usually the triangular rain-guard arrangement, sometimes, even flowing over onto and down the blade throat itself. Finally on the scabbard at the drag chape there is occasionally another monster emitting another deity...or perhaps fire. My plan is to show Makara with the tails of Peacocks since that is how the Buddhist religion shows their form. This is illustrated in Kastane Hilts etc in the following posts on this thread; 25, 52, 56, 71(Gunbutt), 78(door support), 115(Vagra),101,139, 147,150, 153. The Peacock tail is the form created onto the Makara by the religious structure Buddhism. Fact. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Makara_...u_mythology%29 I will now illustrate peacock tails on the artistic "impressions" of this ancient mythical creature. Pictures below indicate the importance of understanding the essential ingredient... The Tail...in Peacock form of the Makara. Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi. Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 14th January 2014 at 03:38 PM. |
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14th January 2014, 08:59 AM
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#5 |
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Salaams All... Once more ... The Kastane hilt. Confirming the peacock tail thus the hilt of Makara form. Showing minor Deities ...having been spewed forth onto the guards and pseudo quillons even displayed as also emitting minor deities themselves since perhaps the artist is conveying mini Makara as well. Illustrating the Vagra Buddhist link and finally the monster at the tip of the scabbard mirroring the general concept of supporting deities in this sword based on the foundation mythical creature the Makara forming the hilt.
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14th January 2014, 09:01 AM
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#6 |
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Dear Ibrahiim,
I can appreciate your position on the subject I can but in the icons present above, none from antiquity show the form of the pommel. I do concur the line drawing does but it doesn't look to be very old and the reference of its source is not forthcoming for better digestion. Gavin |
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14th January 2014, 09:04 AM
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#7 |
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Dear Ibrahiim,
I see no feathers or peacock plumage of any kind in the images you provide... Equally, in relation to a scabbard tip shown, I have had Kastane scabbards carved in the style of an elephant trunk... Gavin |
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14th January 2014, 10:40 AM
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#8 | |
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Quote:
Salaams SwordsAntiqueWeapons ~If you consider The Makara in several stages of development you will note that its morphs according to which phase it is in...See below that it sometimes portrays the elephant form... so it is not surprising that you may have seen an elephant deployed in the scabbard... It is the way the artesan portrayed it..in stage 5 of its potential development...simple enough? In similar ways the Deity is often portrayed with fish scales and a peacock tail... Traditionally, a Makara is considered to be an aquatic mythical creature. Makara has been depicted typically as half animal half fish. Some traditional accounts identify it with a crocodile, specifically Gharial because of its long extended snout. It is depicted with the forequarters of an elephant and the hindquarters as a fish tail. Crocodile was also a form which was used in the earlier days which was shown with a human body. In many temples, the depiction is in the form of half fish or seal with head of an elephant. It is also shown with head and jaws resembling a crocodile, an elephant trunk with scales of fish and a peacock tail. Other accounts identify it with Gangetic Dolphin having striking resemblances with the latter, now found mainly in Vikramshila Gangetic Dolphin Sanctuary. Others portray it as a fish body with an elephant's head. The tradition identifies the makara with water, the source of all existence and fertility. In the medieval era of South India, Makara was shown as a fifth stage of development, symbolized in the form of an elephant head and body with an elaborately foliated fish tail. Most myths maintain this symbolism of this stage in the evolution of life. Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi. |
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14th January 2014, 09:17 AM
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#9 |
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Kastane; Not a Fighting Weapon. Icon only.
Salaams All. Moving forward... It is interesting that the iconic weapon Kastane (now the National Sword of Sri Lanka) appears to have little or no blade markings... marks of high quality blades often seen on Portuguese swords are absent on these weapons. Why?
It struck me that...No Kastane has ever turned up with a properly marked/ stamped blade ... particularly odd since the Portuguese were good at that. So what are these things about? I suggest: 1. Court Swords... Popham Armour, Jewel encrusted gold and silver inlaid... 2. Presentration Swords.. Japanese Delegation and in their Museum ... 3. VIP swords for the Sri Lankan landed gentry...see below. 4. Religious Icons... The Buddhist Vagra and Makara. Defender of the faith ...of Buddhism that is. Thus never a weapon. A religious Icon. 5. Defenders of the owners via myth and superstition because of its Deities.... It is Talismanic per se. 6. Added in retrospect ...Badges of rank of the wearer. The blade is not marked nor stamped for excellence ...the blade is not for fighting... the enriched ruby encrusted gilded hilt would never be wielded in a fight ... a kind of a reverse engineering twist; in the same way that a crucifix or perhaps the cross and orb artifact wouldn't be used as a weapon to club someone to death!!..Neither would this be used as a dagger/ sword in a fight.. since this would dishonour the religion. Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi. Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 14th January 2014 at 01:48 PM. |
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14th January 2014, 10:18 AM
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#10 |
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Salaams All ~Makara. Some notes.
Only Varuna, the lord of the sky and the sea, the spiritual ruler of the world has power over the Makara. The Makara is Varuna’s vehicle in Hindu mythology. As most Karavas in southern Sri Lanka belong to the Karava Varunakulasuriya (Warunakulasuriya) clan, the symbolism is extremely interesting. In mythology Varuna is the chief of the Adithyas. Remnants of the name Adithya from the medieval period can still be found in Karava family names and the Nagadipa inscription of King Parakramabahu I mentions Chandraditya (Chandra + Adithya, Moon & Sun - quoted in Sakala Sinhala Chakrawarthi page 25). As Adithya is a synonym for Suriya (ie. the Sun). the Karava clan Varunakulasuriya too signifies Varuna-Adithya. Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi. Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 14th January 2014 at 12:39 PM. |
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14th January 2014, 10:34 AM
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#11 | |
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Posts: 1,280
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Quote:
[/QUOTE]4. Religious Icons... The Buddhist Vagra and Makara. Defender of the faith ...of Buddhism that is. Thus never a weapon. A religious Icon. 5. Defenders of the owners via myth and superstition because of its Deities.... It is Talismanic per se.[/QUOTE] Weapons with religious symbols on blades or fittings and of talismanic value are nothing of rarity. Actually the ties between religion and warfare are quite obvious and fundamental. |
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13th January 2014, 09:52 PM
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#12 |
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Posts: 1,712
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Chaps...
The depicted Lion like temple Guardians from Nepal in this picture are often called Chinthe, in both Nepal & Burma. I agree There definatly Leogryphs in English language deduction. That's why the have lions tales.  Heres a great picture showing a liongryph ( of south Indian yali form} and makara figures on frieze at Narttamalai Pallava Cave Temple. from the seventh-eighth centuries.{From the Huntington archive.}  That may {or may not.} help your discusian.  Spiral |
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14th January 2014, 07:00 AM
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#13 | |
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Quote:
Salaams Spiral Thank you for the detail and constructive criticism and references . I will now however quickly prove with pictures the Makara peacock feather tale about its tail. Then I shall make a very brave statement about the Kastane. I hope you can remain with me until then... Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi. |
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