Indian Armguard

Jim McDougall · 13th January 2014, 05:24 AM

Thank you for the correction Estcrh, indeed the vambrace (dastana) or bazuband term for the arm guard is the proper term, and the hand covers or gauntlets are just that. Also, thank you for the additional photos and page. Would it be possible to know what reference they are from?

Returning to the 'dastana' we are examining, Robinson (p.96) notes that Sind forms are of the 'tubular' type (on p110 he refers to this tubular type as old Persian style) and opened and closed by means of long removable hinge pins.
The 'piano hinge' form here seems of course to suggest this may be more modern, but the comment of the use of long hinge pins in Sind may still be in this kind of configuration as later development. It seems many of these kinds of armor sets overall we are using in comparisons are likely parade examples which have been put together in composite, but each case would have to be assessed individually .

Also Estcrh thank you for adding the excerpts from the article, which is "Galvanizing Indian Mail", by Helen Bowstead Stallybrass and Andrew Bottomley, 'Royal Armouries Yearbook' #5.
Apparantly zinc was known in India for many centuries and as noted this process was used there before 1680. It does seem possible this dastana was so treated as it does have the dull gray cast but naturally hard to say from photos.

As indicated earlier, this topic is fascinating, but outside my usual field of study, so this is a learning experience for me as well, and I appreciate the corrections to my comments to keep the data in line. On that note, that is basically the same reason I keep asking for references to images etc.

"Oriental Armour" H.R Robinson, 1967
"Islamic Weapons in Polish Collections and their Provenance"
Z. Zygulski, ("Islamic Arms & Armour" 1979, ed. Robert Elgood)
"An Illustrated Handbook of Indian Arms" Lord Egerton of Tatton, 1880
"Arts of the Muslim Knight", Bashir Mohammed, 2008

estcrh · 13th January 2014, 07:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

thank you for the additional photos and page. Would it be possible to know what reference they are from?

Returning to the 'dastana' we are examining......
The 'piano hinge' form here seems of course to suggest this may be more modern, but the comment of the use of long hinge pins in Sind may still be in this kind of configuration as later development.

Jim, the images are from my pinterest which I posted a link to, they were gathered along with any accompanying info from various auctions, dealers and Museums etc.

Hinge pins were used in older Indian armors possibly as early as the 1500s but certainly from the 1600s from what I can tell, this Indian cuirass and others use them.

Indian (Deccani) European style cuirass, 17th Century, all steel construction with a separate front and back plate. The front plate has the original shoulder hinges, but is missing the lower rim. The back plate has a raised neck guard, with metalwork around the neckline. Two replacement shoulder straps, and a replacement side plate also. Both armours held together with long steel pins, in a piano hinge arrangement. akaalarms.com

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 13th January 2014, 11:38 AM

Salaams All, I Quote "From http://www.caravanacollection.com/?p...and-arm-band-2 India, BAZU BAND, Arm Band.18th century.India.Damascene steel, gold.Lenght:32,5cm. Indian Bazu Band, probably from Rajastan, of great quality, in richly wrought steel with gold Koftgari arabesques. The wrist clasp is complete, as are the buckles. Bibl.:George Cameron Stone A Gloss. Of the Const. And Use of the Arms and Armour ISBN 0-486-40726-8 (pbk) Pag.nº107,108 fig.nº140 (20/21) Islamic Weapons Maghrib to Mogghul ISBN 0-9747192-7-7 Pag.225 fig.nº164." Unquote.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 13th January 2014, 11:43 AM

Salaams All ~ I have to say that Indian Armour is not my first subject but that I have thoroughly enjoyed the story so far and it is great to see our experts go for this one! It is a steep learning curve but I am really enjoying the input.
Bye the way Jim,... Dastana means in Hindi ...Mitten or Glove. ... or Gauntlet !

In Baluchi Dast means ... hand.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

estcrh · 13th January 2014, 01:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams All ~ I have to say that Indian Armour is not my first subject but that I have thoroughly enjoyed the story so far and it is great to see our experts go for this one! It is a steep learning curve but I am really enjoying the input.
Bye the way Jim,... Dastana means in Hindi ...Mitten or Glove. ... or Gauntlet !

In Baluchi Dast means ... hand.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Ibrahimm, I am certainly no expert, as for the meaning of "dastana", you and Jim are correct in that some references refer to the hand cover alone as "dastana" but the term has somehow come to describe the entire Indian arm guard. Here is an example from page 112 of "A Description of Indian and Oriental Armour: Illustrated from the Collection Formerly in the India Office, Now Exhibited at South Kensington, and the Author's Private Collection : With a Map, Twenty-three Full-page Plates (two Coloured), and Numerous Woodcuts : With an Introductory Sketch of the Military History of India", Earl Wilbraham Egerton Egerton, W. H. Allen & Company, limited, 1896." which you can read for free as an ebook or download as a pdf.

http://books.google.com/books?id=WXc...gbs_navlinks_s

estcrh · 13th January 2014, 01:32 PM

Here is a closer view of a Sind dastana, the few I have seen have individual finger covers instead of the more conventional mitten type hand cover. The entire matching armor was sold at auction recently which allowed for some detailed images.

Jim McDougall · 13th January 2014, 03:08 PM

Thank you so much guys for the additional images and material, and again I really do appreciate the references and cites. Estcrh, fantastic Pininterest site! and the images stored there are wonderful.
Ibrahiim thank you as well for the always interesting language notes, and it does seem that words and terms as they diffuse into other languages and dialects can become colloquially descriptive in broader sense than the original or root words.

I think this is much in the way that so many words in various languages can end up broadly referring to a wider range of edged weapons such as knife or dagger to sword, or various sword forms incorporated into one term such as the Arabic term sa'if.

Interestingly it would seem that, especially in India where there are so many languages, dialects and diverse cultural influences, that these kinds of descriptive terms have interpolated much as the arms and armor themselves have.

It would seem from what we have seen, these various elements of armor have been grouped together in composite assemblies of components to form functional sets. This is actually much the same as with European armor harness in which the components were often made by various makers and assembled into the complete set.

Thank you again Estrch for adding these additional examples which are attributed nominally to Sind, which gives us excellent perspective on the styles which were likely in use. This is I believe essentially what Paroosevelt has been trying to establish.

Again, absolutely fascinating topic and thread! On the references though, no need for super detail just title, author and publ date wih pages if possible

Well done on that, and much appreciated.

All the best,
Jim

Paroosevelt · 15th January 2014, 02:18 PM

Yes the images are great estcrh. Especially the one with the lammellar style glove. It's exactly what I have been after. I'm hoping to take some samples of the iron next week to confirm whether it has been zinc plated and also to try and gather some information on the smelting and forging processes which is a whole other story. I'll be back to let you know how I get on with it all.

13th January 2014, 11:38 AM	#3
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Bazuband. Salaams All, I Quote "From http://www.caravanacollection.com/?p...and-arm-band-2 India, BAZU BAND, Arm Band.18th century.India.Damascene steel, gold.Lenght:32,5cm. Indian Bazu Band, probably from Rajastan, of great quality, in richly wrought steel with gold Koftgari arabesques. The wrist clasp is complete, as are the buckles. Bibl.:George Cameron Stone A Gloss. Of the Const. And Use of the Arms and Armour ISBN 0-486-40726-8 (pbk) Pag.nº107,108 fig.nº140 (20/21) Islamic Weapons Maghrib to Mogghul ISBN 0-9747192-7-7 Pag.225 fig.nº164." Unquote. Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi. Attached Images Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 13th January 2014 at 12:21 PM.

13th January 2014, 11:43 AM	#4
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Salaams All ~ I have to say that Indian Armour is not my first subject but that I have thoroughly enjoyed the story so far and it is great to see our experts go for this one! It is a steep learning curve but I am really enjoying the input. Bye the way Jim,... Dastana means in Hindi ...Mitten or Glove. ... or Gauntlet ! In Baluchi Dast means ... hand. Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi. Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 13th January 2014 at 12:10 PM.

13th January 2014, 01:32 PM	#6
estcrh Member Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: USA Posts: 1,492	Here is a closer view of a Sind dastana, the few I have seen have individual finger covers instead of the more conventional mitten type hand cover. The entire matching armor was sold at auction recently which allowed for some detailed images. Attached Images

13th January 2014, 05:24 AM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Thank you for the correction Estcrh, indeed the vambrace (dastana) or bazuband term for the arm guard is the proper term, and the hand covers or gauntlets are just that. Also, thank you for the additional photos and page. Would it be possible to know what reference they are from? Returning to the 'dastana' we are examining, Robinson (p.96) notes that Sind forms are of the 'tubular' type (on p110 he refers to this tubular type as old Persian style) and opened and closed by means of long removable hinge pins. The 'piano hinge' form here seems of course to suggest this may be more modern, but the comment of the use of long hinge pins in Sind may still be in this kind of configuration as later development. It seems many of these kinds of armor sets overall we are using in comparisons are likely parade examples which have been put together in composite, but each case would have to be assessed individually . Also Estcrh thank you for adding the excerpts from the article, which is "Galvanizing Indian Mail", by Helen Bowstead Stallybrass and Andrew Bottomley, 'Royal Armouries Yearbook' #5. Apparantly zinc was known in India for many centuries and as noted this process was used there before 1680. It does seem possible this dastana was so treated as it does have the dull gray cast but naturally hard to say from photos. As indicated earlier, this topic is fascinating, but outside my usual field of study, so this is a learning experience for me as well, and I appreciate the corrections to my comments to keep the data in line. On that note, that is basically the same reason I keep asking for references to images etc. "Oriental Armour" H.R Robinson, 1967 "Islamic Weapons in Polish Collections and their Provenance" Z. Zygulski, ("Islamic Arms & Armour" 1979, ed. Robert Elgood) "An Illustrated Handbook of Indian Arms" Lord Egerton of Tatton, 1880 "Arts of the Muslim Knight", Bashir Mohammed, 2008

13th January 2014, 03:08 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Thank you so much guys for the additional images and material, and again I really do appreciate the references and cites. Estcrh, fantastic Pininterest site! and the images stored there are wonderful. Ibrahiim thank you as well for the always interesting language notes, and it does seem that words and terms as they diffuse into other languages and dialects can become colloquially descriptive in broader sense than the original or root words. I think this is much in the way that so many words in various languages can end up broadly referring to a wider range of edged weapons such as knife or dagger to sword, or various sword forms incorporated into one term such as the Arabic term sa'if. Interestingly it would seem that, especially in India where there are so many languages, dialects and diverse cultural influences, that these kinds of descriptive terms have interpolated much as the arms and armor themselves have. It would seem from what we have seen, these various elements of armor have been grouped together in composite assemblies of components to form functional sets. This is actually much the same as with European armor harness in which the components were often made by various makers and assembled into the complete set. Thank you again Estrch for adding these additional examples which are attributed nominally to Sind, which gives us excellent perspective on the styles which were likely in use. This is I believe essentially what Paroosevelt has been trying to establish. Again, absolutely fascinating topic and thread! On the references though, no need for super detail just title, author and publ date wih pages if possible Well done on that, and much appreciated. All the best, Jim

15th January 2014, 02:18 PM	#8
Paroosevelt Member Join Date: Jan 2014 Posts: 3	Yes the images are great estcrh. Especially the one with the lammellar style glove. It's exactly what I have been after. I'm hoping to take some samples of the iron next week to confirm whether it has been zinc plated and also to try and gather some information on the smelting and forging processes which is a whole other story. I'll be back to let you know how I get on with it all.