Indian Armguard

Jim McDougall · 12th January 2014, 09:35 PM

Im glad to see you back as this topic is quite intriguing. While armor is not particularly my field either, it is interesting to look into though some of the questions you have will be difficult to address.

In my initial response I had spent some time going through resources which I hoped might have some specific detail or information pertaining to Sind, as you have noted. Actually all appearances seem to point to Sind for this item as the brass decorative borders seem favored in that region.
I would point out that as I understand the item you have is actually a vambrace or bazu band, while the dastana is the glove or gauntlet usually of mail.

I would also point out that like most sets of armor, the components are usually from various sources and not necessarily homogenous or congruent.
In the case of the example you saw at Leeds it is believed to be comprised of varying components with only the shirt of 'Sind' style.
Though the example shown by Estcrh is not referenced, I believe it is as I noted in Krakow, and the helmet is actually believed European and earlier.

These are I think the problems you may face with your thesis in that there is great difficulty in finding reliable comparisons to classify to a certain region in the capacity you suggest. Also, Sind was like most areas of India, subject to considerable outside infuences and cultural flux. It was under Mughal rule from 17th into 18th c. then invaded by the Durrani's 1747 becoming part of Afghanistan, then taken by the Talpurs in 1783, tribes from the regions of neighboring Baluchistan.

The most common denominator however would be the strong, even dominant, influence of Persia which of course included arms and armor.

I know the article you mention on galvanizing and will try to get my copy.

As with many arms and armor in India, there was so much diffusion from one region to another a study as you propose would be difficult, and only the documented attention you seek would provide data toward your thesis.
In that respect most of the sources thus far mentioned are, though focused on Indian arms, far too general and concern mostly typology.

Still we will continue to look for the information you seek, and hope you will keep us posted on your own progress as well.

All best regards,
Jim

estcrh · 13th January 2014, 01:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

I know the article you mention on galvanizing and will try to get my copy.

Here it is.

estcrh · 13th January 2014, 01:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Though the example shown by Estcrh is not referenced, I believe it is as I noted in Krakow, and the helmet is actually believed European and earlier.

Jim

Jim, according to the information I can find this armor is located in the National Museum, Krakow Poland, I am not quite sure what you mean by

Quote:

the helmet is actually believed European and earlier.

one source I have seen notes that the helmet bowl is made "in mughal fashion".

Quote:

I would point out that as I understand the item you have is actually a vambrace or bazu band, while the dastana is the glove or gauntlet usually of mail.

As far as I know the name for arm guards of Indian origin is "dastana".

estcrh · 13th January 2014, 01:45 AM

More armors said to be Sind.

Jim McDougall · 13th January 2014, 05:24 AM

Thank you for the correction Estcrh, indeed the vambrace (dastana) or bazuband term for the arm guard is the proper term, and the hand covers or gauntlets are just that. Also, thank you for the additional photos and page. Would it be possible to know what reference they are from?

Returning to the 'dastana' we are examining, Robinson (p.96) notes that Sind forms are of the 'tubular' type (on p110 he refers to this tubular type as old Persian style) and opened and closed by means of long removable hinge pins.
The 'piano hinge' form here seems of course to suggest this may be more modern, but the comment of the use of long hinge pins in Sind may still be in this kind of configuration as later development. It seems many of these kinds of armor sets overall we are using in comparisons are likely parade examples which have been put together in composite, but each case would have to be assessed individually .

Also Estcrh thank you for adding the excerpts from the article, which is "Galvanizing Indian Mail", by Helen Bowstead Stallybrass and Andrew Bottomley, 'Royal Armouries Yearbook' #5.
Apparantly zinc was known in India for many centuries and as noted this process was used there before 1680. It does seem possible this dastana was so treated as it does have the dull gray cast but naturally hard to say from photos.

As indicated earlier, this topic is fascinating, but outside my usual field of study, so this is a learning experience for me as well, and I appreciate the corrections to my comments to keep the data in line. On that note, that is basically the same reason I keep asking for references to images etc.

"Oriental Armour" H.R Robinson, 1967
"Islamic Weapons in Polish Collections and their Provenance"
Z. Zygulski, ("Islamic Arms & Armour" 1979, ed. Robert Elgood)
"An Illustrated Handbook of Indian Arms" Lord Egerton of Tatton, 1880
"Arts of the Muslim Knight", Bashir Mohammed, 2008

estcrh · 13th January 2014, 07:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

thank you for the additional photos and page. Would it be possible to know what reference they are from?

Returning to the 'dastana' we are examining......
The 'piano hinge' form here seems of course to suggest this may be more modern, but the comment of the use of long hinge pins in Sind may still be in this kind of configuration as later development.

Jim, the images are from my pinterest which I posted a link to, they were gathered along with any accompanying info from various auctions, dealers and Museums etc.

Hinge pins were used in older Indian armors possibly as early as the 1500s but certainly from the 1600s from what I can tell, this Indian cuirass and others use them.

Indian (Deccani) European style cuirass, 17th Century, all steel construction with a separate front and back plate. The front plate has the original shoulder hinges, but is missing the lower rim. The back plate has a raised neck guard, with metalwork around the neckline. Two replacement shoulder straps, and a replacement side plate also. Both armours held together with long steel pins, in a piano hinge arrangement. akaalarms.com

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 13th January 2014, 11:38 AM

Salaams All, I Quote "From http://www.caravanacollection.com/?p...and-arm-band-2 India, BAZU BAND, Arm Band.18th century.India.Damascene steel, gold.Lenght:32,5cm. Indian Bazu Band, probably from Rajastan, of great quality, in richly wrought steel with gold Koftgari arabesques. The wrist clasp is complete, as are the buckles. Bibl.:George Cameron Stone A Gloss. Of the Const. And Use of the Arms and Armour ISBN 0-486-40726-8 (pbk) Pag.nº107,108 fig.nº140 (20/21) Islamic Weapons Maghrib to Mogghul ISBN 0-9747192-7-7 Pag.225 fig.nº164." Unquote.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 13th January 2014, 11:43 AM

Salaams All ~ I have to say that Indian Armour is not my first subject but that I have thoroughly enjoyed the story so far and it is great to see our experts go for this one! It is a steep learning curve but I am really enjoying the input.
Bye the way Jim,... Dastana means in Hindi ...Mitten or Glove. ... or Gauntlet !

In Baluchi Dast means ... hand.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

estcrh · 13th January 2014, 01:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams All ~ I have to say that Indian Armour is not my first subject but that I have thoroughly enjoyed the story so far and it is great to see our experts go for this one! It is a steep learning curve but I am really enjoying the input.
Bye the way Jim,... Dastana means in Hindi ...Mitten or Glove. ... or Gauntlet !

In Baluchi Dast means ... hand.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Ibrahimm, I am certainly no expert, as for the meaning of "dastana", you and Jim are correct in that some references refer to the hand cover alone as "dastana" but the term has somehow come to describe the entire Indian arm guard. Here is an example from page 112 of "A Description of Indian and Oriental Armour: Illustrated from the Collection Formerly in the India Office, Now Exhibited at South Kensington, and the Author's Private Collection : With a Map, Twenty-three Full-page Plates (two Coloured), and Numerous Woodcuts : With an Introductory Sketch of the Military History of India", Earl Wilbraham Egerton Egerton, W. H. Allen & Company, limited, 1896." which you can read for free as an ebook or download as a pdf.

http://books.google.com/books?id=WXc...gbs_navlinks_s

13th January 2014, 01:45 AM	#4
estcrh Member Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: USA Posts: 1,492	More armors said to be Sind. Attached Images

13th January 2014, 11:38 AM	#7
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Bazuband. Salaams All, I Quote "From http://www.caravanacollection.com/?p...and-arm-band-2 India, BAZU BAND, Arm Band.18th century.India.Damascene steel, gold.Lenght:32,5cm. Indian Bazu Band, probably from Rajastan, of great quality, in richly wrought steel with gold Koftgari arabesques. The wrist clasp is complete, as are the buckles. Bibl.:George Cameron Stone A Gloss. Of the Const. And Use of the Arms and Armour ISBN 0-486-40726-8 (pbk) Pag.nº107,108 fig.nº140 (20/21) Islamic Weapons Maghrib to Mogghul ISBN 0-9747192-7-7 Pag.225 fig.nº164." Unquote. Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi. Attached Images Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 13th January 2014 at 12:21 PM.

13th January 2014, 11:43 AM	#8
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Salaams All ~ I have to say that Indian Armour is not my first subject but that I have thoroughly enjoyed the story so far and it is great to see our experts go for this one! It is a steep learning curve but I am really enjoying the input. Bye the way Jim,... Dastana means in Hindi ...Mitten or Glove. ... or Gauntlet ! In Baluchi Dast means ... hand. Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi. Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 13th January 2014 at 12:10 PM.

12th January 2014, 09:35 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Im glad to see you back as this topic is quite intriguing. While armor is not particularly my field either, it is interesting to look into though some of the questions you have will be difficult to address. In my initial response I had spent some time going through resources which I hoped might have some specific detail or information pertaining to Sind, as you have noted. Actually all appearances seem to point to Sind for this item as the brass decorative borders seem favored in that region. I would point out that as I understand the item you have is actually a vambrace or bazu band, while the dastana is the glove or gauntlet usually of mail. I would also point out that like most sets of armor, the components are usually from various sources and not necessarily homogenous or congruent. In the case of the example you saw at Leeds it is believed to be comprised of varying components with only the shirt of 'Sind' style. Though the example shown by Estcrh is not referenced, I believe it is as I noted in Krakow, and the helmet is actually believed European and earlier. These are I think the problems you may face with your thesis in that there is great difficulty in finding reliable comparisons to classify to a certain region in the capacity you suggest. Also, Sind was like most areas of India, subject to considerable outside infuences and cultural flux. It was under Mughal rule from 17th into 18th c. then invaded by the Durrani's 1747 becoming part of Afghanistan, then taken by the Talpurs in 1783, tribes from the regions of neighboring Baluchistan. The most common denominator however would be the strong, even dominant, influence of Persia which of course included arms and armor. I know the article you mention on galvanizing and will try to get my copy. As with many arms and armor in India, there was so much diffusion from one region to another a study as you propose would be difficult, and only the documented attention you seek would provide data toward your thesis. In that respect most of the sources thus far mentioned are, though focused on Indian arms, far too general and concern mostly typology. Still we will continue to look for the information you seek, and hope you will keep us posted on your own progress as well. All best regards, Jim

13th January 2014, 05:24 AM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Thank you for the correction Estcrh, indeed the vambrace (dastana) or bazuband term for the arm guard is the proper term, and the hand covers or gauntlets are just that. Also, thank you for the additional photos and page. Would it be possible to know what reference they are from? Returning to the 'dastana' we are examining, Robinson (p.96) notes that Sind forms are of the 'tubular' type (on p110 he refers to this tubular type as old Persian style) and opened and closed by means of long removable hinge pins. The 'piano hinge' form here seems of course to suggest this may be more modern, but the comment of the use of long hinge pins in Sind may still be in this kind of configuration as later development. It seems many of these kinds of armor sets overall we are using in comparisons are likely parade examples which have been put together in composite, but each case would have to be assessed individually . Also Estcrh thank you for adding the excerpts from the article, which is "Galvanizing Indian Mail", by Helen Bowstead Stallybrass and Andrew Bottomley, 'Royal Armouries Yearbook' #5. Apparantly zinc was known in India for many centuries and as noted this process was used there before 1680. It does seem possible this dastana was so treated as it does have the dull gray cast but naturally hard to say from photos. As indicated earlier, this topic is fascinating, but outside my usual field of study, so this is a learning experience for me as well, and I appreciate the corrections to my comments to keep the data in line. On that note, that is basically the same reason I keep asking for references to images etc. "Oriental Armour" H.R Robinson, 1967 "Islamic Weapons in Polish Collections and their Provenance" Z. Zygulski, ("Islamic Arms & Armour" 1979, ed. Robert Elgood) "An Illustrated Handbook of Indian Arms" Lord Egerton of Tatton, 1880 "Arts of the Muslim Knight", Bashir Mohammed, 2008