Shashka for comments

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 6th January 2014, 09:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Thank you so much for the additional photos Teodor, and these remarkably clarify exactly what Antique Arms was saying. If you look at the backstrap of the hilt right at the blade you will see the fixture which is loosely termed the 'calyx'. This is one of the most profound indicators of Central Asian origin, and in this case specifically Afghanistan (look at this location on Khyber knives). I therefore withdraw my Chechen/Caucasian assessment with this new evidence which is of course compelling.
Further I have looked at examples of Afghan shashkas and the profile and curvature of the blade is extremely similar.

What is even more compelling, and remarkable are the views of the other motif on this blade, which even more convinces me that this is from the Nuristan regions of Afghanistan or from that particular tribal culture.
This area of Nuristan is comprised of the former Kafiristan (written of by Roberts in 1896, and famed for Kipling's rendition in "The Man Who Wuld be King"). The Kafirs were subjugated by Afghan Amir Adur Rahman Khan in 1896 and converted to Islam, while the somewhat associated Kalash people of Chitral in Pakistan retain their original animist folk religion and traditions.
The amalgamation of Islamic cartouche (which may be an imitation?) and the pictographic and geometric motif resembling Kafir work suggest of course possible cross diffusion .
I would consider this from regions indicated and probably from early years of the 20th century.

Salaams Jim, I find this very interesting. The Kalash believe they are decended from Alexander the Great. Oddly they had no alphabet until about 12 years ago. I urge readers to see http://www.aljazeera.com/programmes/...125929206.html for a fascinating vignette into the Kalash situation.

I imagine the cartouche to be Hindi or closely related.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Jim McDougall · 6th January 2014, 10:24 PM

Excellent link Ibrahiim! and this shows the complexity of these ethnic groups in these regions. Actually the Kalash people are linked to the Nuristani (Kafirs) by the same polytheistic religion and in degree with other traditions similar. The tradition of the ancestry to Alexander seems more to similarities to aspects of Greek culture but cannot be proven genetically. Still these groups are fascinating anthropologically as they are so culturally isolated in the regions they occupy.

The fact that this sword seems connected to them and reflecting such a confluence of the symbolic motifs associated with them borne on a sword of the surrounding culture makes this weapon unique indeed

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 7th January 2014, 06:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Excellent link Ibrahiim! and this shows the complexity of these ethnic groups in these regions. Actually the Kalash people are linked to the Nuristani (Kafirs) by the same polytheistic religion and in degree with other traditions similar. The tradition of the ancestry to Alexander seems more to similarities to aspects of Greek culture but cannot be proven genetically. Still these groups are fascinating anthropologically as they are so culturally isolated in the regions they occupy.

The fact that this sword seems connected to them and reflecting such a confluence of the symbolic motifs associated with them borne on a sword of the surrounding culture makes this weapon unique indeed

Salaams Jim ~ I have to say that I think the writing style is Georgian or Armenian. I have looked at the decorative floral Saz leaf which is correctly identified as Turkish by Martin Lubojacky (they must have sold 2 copies at least as I have one) though it is not only Turkish as I have seen tiles from Persia decorated with similar form as the Iznik.

I call upon Ariel for his expert view on the script in the cartouche.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

ariel · 7th January 2014, 09:46 AM

I am on vacation, with only rare access to the Internet ( so happens, I got access by chance this very moment), but far, far away from my sharpies and books. Therefore, forgive me for not posting any examples.

IMHO, this is a typical Afghani blade based on the structure of fullers. I have a couple of Pulwars with exactly the same arrangement. To the best of my recollection, there were also brass inlays polished flush with the blade.
The handle and the scabbard are Caucasian, no doubt, but since shashkas were made also in Turkey ( mainly after Circassian exile ) and (less so) in Persia, these later features do not help much.

Caucasian "ghulams" were integral and very significant part of Iranian armies going all the way back to the reign of Shah Abbas the Great: Georgi Saakadze was one of his commanders against the Ottomans, another Georgian, Allahverdi Undiladze, commanded the entire Ghulam corps in his campains in Afghanistan and was the governor of the Fars province , an Armenian Melik Khan was yet another Caucasian commander ( BTW, the artillery corps was built and commanded by the British brothers Anthony and Robert Sherley), etc. The fighting units were composed mainly from the Georgians, Armenians and Circassians but ethnic Persians themselves were regularly given administrative positions. This tradition continued even with Nader Shah.

Thus, it would not be impossible for one of the veterans to bring back some Afghani souvenirs ( a sword?) the blade of which would be recycled into a traditional shashka. The minimal curvature of tulwar/pulwar blades was ideal for shashkas, as opposed to highly curved Persian shamshirs.

Yu.Miller, in his book Caucasian Weapons ( Hermitage collection) shows even stranger Frankensword: a Khanda blade with a classical Georgian handle. Perhaps, from the same campaign:-)

Jim McDougall · 7th January 2014, 06:00 PM

Ibrahiim thank you for your astute assessment on the script! which seems to further support the observations of Martin, Teodor and Antique Arms regarding Afghan provenance as well as the Ottoman influence in the mounts.
Ariel your knowledge on these weapons, in particular of course shashkas and Central Asian swords is remarkable, as evidenced by the incredibly detailed material you have posted while not even near your references!

As Antique Arms has noted, there are some basic similarities in blade features in the Chinese weapons illustrated in the articles by Philip Tom, however these indicate later influence from apparently 'Near Eastern' and perhaps 'qalachuri' blades with segmented fuller panels

I am unclear on these influences appearing in the Chinese blades in the 19th century but I think the possible scenarios for the confluence of Afghan and Georgian features in the sword overall as earlier suggested by Teodor and masterfully described further by Ariel give us an excellent 'forensic' analysis of this sword .

Gentlemen this is exactly the kind of discussion and exchange of observations I always hope for on these pages! and I cannot thank you all enough for your valuable participation. Sharing this kind of data enables us all to learn from the stuff which is often not in the books, and from experience. Outstanding!

Gavin Nugent · 8th January 2014, 03:29 AM

Some further ideas for thought.

I am with Ariel in that this blade is from the Afghanistan region and Sindh, not Bukhara or elsewhere. The blade is typical of the forms seen in these regions even if the scabbard fitting style is not. The brass inlay in the blade is also typical of the regions. Of note is the long forte before the fullering arrangements...this is typically a Persian influenced thing to my eye, based on the many trade blades from the region.

The grip slab profile is Caucasian but the manner in which the grip slabs are attached is also known in the Afghan regions. There is what appears to be the remains of a calynx at the end of a simple applied top grip strap, something also typically seen in the Afghan regions.

Many Ottoman made Shashka are known and considering the long relationship that Russia and Turkey have had over the centuries, both good and bad, and that many people from both regions are known to have settled East of the Caspian Sea, these ethnic roots could have been the influence behind this examples scabbard fittings, and perhaps a preferred hilt style to the owner.

From memory, the fuller styles are seen on Kukri, Persian Shamshir, Indian Sabres, Chinese sabres.

Gavin

TVV · 8th January 2014, 05:57 PM

This is why this forum is so great: the knowledge and ability of the members to examine all angles in identifying a sword or a dagger. An Afghan origin of the blade is certainly not what I originally expected, but the evidence seems to certainly point in that direction.

Once again, many thanks to all participants in this thread,

Teodor

TVV · 6th January 2014, 10:33 PM

Jim,

This is very interesting. In discussions on Central Asian shashkas, I recall the general consensus being that the form became popular in Central Asia only in the second half of the 19th century, partially due to the Circassian diaspora, and partially due to the strong Russian military influence, following the successful conquest of the region by the Russian Empire.

On this particular sword I think we can agree that the scabbard fittings are bearing a motif that is distinctly Turkish. The hilt is also typical of Caucasus and subsequently Russian examples, and not of the Central Asian type.

If the blade is indeed from Afghanistan, then the history of the sword would be subject to some interesting speculation. The role of the Ottoman Empire in Central Asia during the Great Game was quite small, limited to moral support for the Muslim Khanates which opposed Russia in a futile attempt to retain their independence. We know that the Ottoman Sultan bestowed Yakub Beg of Kashgaria with the title of Emir, which apparently irked St. Petersburg. Kashgaria, as well as Bukhara and Khokand bordered Afghanistan, so assuming the blade is from Nuristan, it could have ended up with a soldier for one of the Khanates, who then fled to the Ottoman Empire after the Russian (or in the case of Kashgaria, Chinese) conquest of the region.

However, to be absolutely convinced on the Afghan origin, I would love to see the same decorative motives from the panels on the sword on another object from the area, even if the "calyx" is pretty convincing itself.

Regards,
Teodor

Jim McDougall · 6th January 2014, 11:18 PM

Hi Teodor,
Actually the shashka was well established in the Caucusus, but exactly how far back is unclear and seems like the form may be presumed from 18th century, but most known examples date from 19th century. The period after the Murid Wars of the 1850s was I believe when the shashka became adopted into Russian service, naturally with the Cossacks. As many Caucasians entered Russian military service, they often were allowed to retain their heirloom shashas and soon the weapons became popular with Russian officers and military. The Cossacks had been in place long before but their sabres were usually European in form and with various guard styles, though Zaparozhians often favored shamshirs and Ottoman sabres.

From what I have understood, the Uzbek and Afghan forms of these sabres are not considered variants of the shashka, though it is hard to imagine that Russian intervention in those regions did not present influence, but again this was later in the 19th century.

As I noted, this blade is as far as I know remarkably unique as I have not seen such motif nor this type of fullering on one of these swords, and again note that my suggestion is purely speculative. As far as how it ended up in the current mounts must be equally speculative, and given the constant geopolitical flux and diaspora in these regions, any number of possibilities must exist. The presence of Ottoman influenced motif in these mounts is more likely to be the result of artisans from these regions having removed to many regions where these components may have been put together.

It seems that in these turbulent times of the later 19th into the 20th and indeed to this day, most items, especially those which have clearly been refurbished or with incongruent components, we are left to evaluate them almost separately . There are so many possibilities, but the Afghan character of the blade; the Caucasian nature of the hilt and the Kalash nature of the motif in a sword of the early 20th century must be viewed as composite .

I would note that Afghan shashkas invariably have a steel bolster and usually three rivets in the hilt, Caucasian ones do not have the bolster.
The usual Uzbek guardless sabre has five rivets.

ArmsAndAntiques · 7th January 2014, 01:40 AM

The two works on Chinese swords that Philip wrote reference Chinese blades with fullering influenced by Persian and Central Asian motifs, particularly the L-shape near the ricasso.

The links are attached.
http://www.mandarinmansion.com/publications

First article on sabres in the Met, pg 210.

Second article pg 5, where you can a see a Chinese saber with very similar but much finer fullering work.

Best
LL

6th January 2014, 10:24 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	Excellent link Ibrahiim! and this shows the complexity of these ethnic groups in these regions. Actually the Kalash people are linked to the Nuristani (Kafirs) by the same polytheistic religion and in degree with other traditions similar. The tradition of the ancestry to Alexander seems more to similarities to aspects of Greek culture but cannot be proven genetically. Still these groups are fascinating anthropologically as they are so culturally isolated in the regions they occupy. The fact that this sword seems connected to them and reflecting such a confluence of the symbolic motifs associated with them borne on a sword of the surrounding culture makes this weapon unique indeed

7th January 2014, 09:46 AM	#4
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I am on vacation, with only rare access to the Internet ( so happens, I got access by chance this very moment), but far, far away from my sharpies and books. Therefore, forgive me for not posting any examples. IMHO, this is a typical Afghani blade based on the structure of fullers. I have a couple of Pulwars with exactly the same arrangement. To the best of my recollection, there were also brass inlays polished flush with the blade. The handle and the scabbard are Caucasian, no doubt, but since shashkas were made also in Turkey ( mainly after Circassian exile ) and (less so) in Persia, these later features do not help much. Caucasian "ghulams" were integral and very significant part of Iranian armies going all the way back to the reign of Shah Abbas the Great: Georgi Saakadze was one of his commanders against the Ottomans, another Georgian, Allahverdi Undiladze, commanded the entire Ghulam corps in his campains in Afghanistan and was the governor of the Fars province , an Armenian Melik Khan was yet another Caucasian commander ( BTW, the artillery corps was built and commanded by the British brothers Anthony and Robert Sherley), etc. The fighting units were composed mainly from the Georgians, Armenians and Circassians but ethnic Persians themselves were regularly given administrative positions. This tradition continued even with Nader Shah. Thus, it would not be impossible for one of the veterans to bring back some Afghani souvenirs ( a sword?) the blade of which would be recycled into a traditional shashka. The minimal curvature of tulwar/pulwar blades was ideal for shashkas, as opposed to highly curved Persian shamshirs. Yu.Miller, in his book Caucasian Weapons ( Hermitage collection) shows even stranger Frankensword: a Khanda blade with a classical Georgian handle. Perhaps, from the same campaign:-)

7th January 2014, 06:00 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	Ibrahiim thank you for your astute assessment on the script! which seems to further support the observations of Martin, Teodor and Antique Arms regarding Afghan provenance as well as the Ottoman influence in the mounts. Ariel your knowledge on these weapons, in particular of course shashkas and Central Asian swords is remarkable, as evidenced by the incredibly detailed material you have posted while not even near your references! As Antique Arms has noted, there are some basic similarities in blade features in the Chinese weapons illustrated in the articles by Philip Tom, however these indicate later influence from apparently 'Near Eastern' and perhaps 'qalachuri' blades with segmented fuller panels I am unclear on these influences appearing in the Chinese blades in the 19th century but I think the possible scenarios for the confluence of Afghan and Georgian features in the sword overall as earlier suggested by Teodor and masterfully described further by Ariel give us an excellent 'forensic' analysis of this sword . Gentlemen this is exactly the kind of discussion and exchange of observations I always hope for on these pages! and I cannot thank you all enough for your valuable participation. Sharing this kind of data enables us all to learn from the stuff which is often not in the books, and from experience. Outstanding!

8th January 2014, 03:29 AM	#6
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Some further ideas for thought. I am with Ariel in that this blade is from the Afghanistan region and Sindh, not Bukhara or elsewhere. The blade is typical of the forms seen in these regions even if the scabbard fitting style is not. The brass inlay in the blade is also typical of the regions. Of note is the long forte before the fullering arrangements...this is typically a Persian influenced thing to my eye, based on the many trade blades from the region. The grip slab profile is Caucasian but the manner in which the grip slabs are attached is also known in the Afghan regions. There is what appears to be the remains of a calynx at the end of a simple applied top grip strap, something also typically seen in the Afghan regions. Many Ottoman made Shashka are known and considering the long relationship that Russia and Turkey have had over the centuries, both good and bad, and that many people from both regions are known to have settled East of the Caspian Sea, these ethnic roots could have been the influence behind this examples scabbard fittings, and perhaps a preferred hilt style to the owner. From memory, the fuller styles are seen on Kukri, Persian Shamshir, Indian Sabres, Chinese sabres. Gavin

8th January 2014, 05:57 PM	#7
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,660	This is why this forum is so great: the knowledge and ability of the members to examine all angles in identifying a sword or a dagger. An Afghan origin of the blade is certainly not what I originally expected, but the evidence seems to certainly point in that direction. Once again, many thanks to all participants in this thread, Teodor

6th January 2014, 10:33 PM	#8
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,660	Jim, This is very interesting. In discussions on Central Asian shashkas, I recall the general consensus being that the form became popular in Central Asia only in the second half of the 19th century, partially due to the Circassian diaspora, and partially due to the strong Russian military influence, following the successful conquest of the region by the Russian Empire. On this particular sword I think we can agree that the scabbard fittings are bearing a motif that is distinctly Turkish. The hilt is also typical of Caucasus and subsequently Russian examples, and not of the Central Asian type. If the blade is indeed from Afghanistan, then the history of the sword would be subject to some interesting speculation. The role of the Ottoman Empire in Central Asia during the Great Game was quite small, limited to moral support for the Muslim Khanates which opposed Russia in a futile attempt to retain their independence. We know that the Ottoman Sultan bestowed Yakub Beg of Kashgaria with the title of Emir, which apparently irked St. Petersburg. Kashgaria, as well as Bukhara and Khokand bordered Afghanistan, so assuming the blade is from Nuristan, it could have ended up with a soldier for one of the Khanates, who then fled to the Ottoman Empire after the Russian (or in the case of Kashgaria, Chinese) conquest of the region. However, to be absolutely convinced on the Afghan origin, I would love to see the same decorative motives from the panels on the sword on another object from the area, even if the "calyx" is pretty convincing itself. Regards, Teodor

6th January 2014, 11:18 PM	#9
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	Hi Teodor, Actually the shashka was well established in the Caucusus, but exactly how far back is unclear and seems like the form may be presumed from 18th century, but most known examples date from 19th century. The period after the Murid Wars of the 1850s was I believe when the shashka became adopted into Russian service, naturally with the Cossacks. As many Caucasians entered Russian military service, they often were allowed to retain their heirloom shashas and soon the weapons became popular with Russian officers and military. The Cossacks had been in place long before but their sabres were usually European in form and with various guard styles, though Zaparozhians often favored shamshirs and Ottoman sabres. From what I have understood, the Uzbek and Afghan forms of these sabres are not considered variants of the shashka, though it is hard to imagine that Russian intervention in those regions did not present influence, but again this was later in the 19th century. As I noted, this blade is as far as I know remarkably unique as I have not seen such motif nor this type of fullering on one of these swords, and again note that my suggestion is purely speculative. As far as how it ended up in the current mounts must be equally speculative, and given the constant geopolitical flux and diaspora in these regions, any number of possibilities must exist. The presence of Ottoman influenced motif in these mounts is more likely to be the result of artisans from these regions having removed to many regions where these components may have been put together. It seems that in these turbulent times of the later 19th into the 20th and indeed to this day, most items, especially those which have clearly been refurbished or with incongruent components, we are left to evaluate them almost separately . There are so many possibilities, but the Afghan character of the blade; the Caucasian nature of the hilt and the Kalash nature of the motif in a sword of the early 20th century must be viewed as composite . I would note that Afghan shashkas invariably have a steel bolster and usually three rivets in the hilt, Caucasian ones do not have the bolster. The usual Uzbek guardless sabre has five rivets.

7th January 2014, 01:40 AM	#10
ArmsAndAntiques Member Join Date: Dec 2013 Posts: 80	The two works on Chinese swords that Philip wrote reference Chinese blades with fullering influenced by Persian and Central Asian motifs, particularly the L-shape near the ricasso. The links are attached. http://www.mandarinmansion.com/publications First article on sabres in the Met, pg 210. Second article pg 5, where you can a see a Chinese saber with very similar but much finer fullering work. Best LL