When is a keris legitimate?

rasjid · 29th December 2013, 01:28 PM

Hi Alan,

When you say : what is a keris, the we are talking about Pakem. Keris can be called Keris if its follow certain rules/or known knowledge amongs the rulers, ie Kraton. It will be called work of arts or keris keris-an if its not flowing with the Pakem.
In short to call the keris is a legitimate keris, could be:
1. Follow the Pakem set by Kraton standard according to the era / tangguh of the Keris itself
2. A group of knowledgeable Keris seniors agreed about the Keris quality of workmanship and flow with the Tangguh.
( subject to neutral opinion... )

Another point, for newly made Keris, if acceptable by majority people and sold with High Price... can we call it a legitimate Keris?

Regards
Rasjid

VANDOO · 29th December 2013, 07:35 PM

THE FIRST TIME I SAW A DAGGER REFFERED TO AS A KRIS IT WAS A NEW POORLY MADE KNIFE WITH A WAVEY BLADE SAID TO BE A THROWING KNIFE. IT WAS A MONOSTEEL BLADE SHAPED WITH A POWER SAW WITH CRUDELY GROUND BLADE EDGES A CRUDE GAURD AND A WOOD HANDLE PAINTED BLACK WITH A GOLD PAINTED DRAGON DESIGN ON THE GRIP. A REAL PIECE OF JUNK

BUT IT HAD A WAVEY BLADE SOMETHING NOT SEEN OFTEN, I ASSUMED IF ALL WAVEY BLADES WERE EITHER A KERIS OR A FLAMBU (FLAME SHAPED BLADE).
I HAVE LEARNED MUCH SINCE THEN AND HAVE FOUND THE KERIS IS MUCH MORE COMPLICATED THAN JUST A WAVEY BLADE

. MANY YEARS LATER I FIND I MAY BE A NOVICE AT BEST, BECAUSE THERE IS SO MUCH TO LEARN ABOUT THE KERIS. I JUST DABBLE AND DON'T PUT IN THE NECESSARY TIME NEEDED TO ADVANCE AND OFTEN TEND TO FORGET WHAT I LEARN AS I DON'T STICK WITH IT AND HAVE TOO MANY OTHER IRONS IN THE FIRE.

I MOSTLY COLLECT WHAT I FIND ASCETICALY PLEASING TO ME AND DO ENJOY READING THE POSTS HERE THOUGH I DON'T HAVE THE KNOWLEGE TO ADD MUCH.
A FEW THOUGHTS. THE BLADE IS WHAT MAKES A KERIS A KERIS. 1. KERIS BLADES ARE DOUBLE EDGED AND HAVE A SEPARATE PART TO THE BLADE NEAR THE FORTE. (A SINGLE EDGE AND A ONE PART BLADE DOES NOT A KERIS MAKE)
2. THERE ARE SEVERAL DIFFERENT VARIATIONS IN SHAPE TO KERIS BLADES STRAIGHT AS WELL AS WAVEY.
3. THE MANY BLADE PATTERNS SHOW REGION , MASTERY OF FORGEING AND HAVE DIFFERENT MEANINGS OR DENOTE VARIOUS POWERS.

THIS IS JUST VERY BASIC AND I HOPE NOT INCORRECT OR MISLEADING THE MORE I WRITE THE MORE I FEEL I DO NOT KNOW MUCH SO WILL STOP HERE BEFORE I GOOF UP TOO BAD.

AND LEAVE IT TO THOSE MORE DEVOTED TO THE KERIS TO LAY THE INFORMATION OUT.

Timo Nieminen · 29th December 2013, 08:47 PM

Since "keris" is a conventional taxonomic label, we are not free of collective opinion. For something to be a "real" keris, it must meet the requirements of the definition; some of these have been noted by Vandoo above. But here there is some plasticity.

1. Does a keris need to be forged? If the maker grinds the blade from a slab of steel, can it be a real keris?

2. Can anybody make a keris? Can a keris be made everywhere in the world, or only in certain places? I.e., does "keris" have similar status to "nihonto" ("real" Japanese sword)?

3. What degree of variation is permitted before it ceases to be a keris?

From a weapons-collecting point of view, a key point is functionality as a weapon or bladed tool. This provides no answer for the three questions above. So it is insufficient for keris. (It is also insufficient for "nihonto".) Where the type of object in question is still in modern use, but the main use is not as a weapon or cutting tool (i.e., the main use is not actually cutting or stabbing things, or training to cut/stab things), perhaps physical function can mislead us. Based on physical function, I would not call a Bali tourist keris with an unsharpened sheet metal blade with painted-on "pamor" a real keris. To a weapons collector, it isn't "real" - it isn't a weapon. But perhaps it could be to a modern keris user. I don't know the answer, but am interested. So:

4. Can a "non-weapon" keris be "real"?

kai · 29th December 2013, 11:30 PM

Hello Timo,

Quote:

From a weapons-collecting point of view, a key point is functionality as a weapon or bladed tool. This provides no answer for the three questions above. So it is insufficient for keris. (It is also insufficient for "nihonto".) Where the type of object in question is still in modern use, but the main use is not as a weapon or cutting tool (i.e., the main use is not actually cutting or stabbing things, or training to cut/stab things), perhaps physical function can mislead us. Based on physical function, I would not call a Bali tourist keris with an unsharpened sheet metal blade with painted-on "pamor" a real keris. To a weapons collector, it isn't "real" - it isn't a weapon. But perhaps it could be to a modern keris user. I don't know the answer, but am interested. So:

4. Can a "non-weapon" keris be "real"?

If we accept a Jawa-centric cultural approach to things keris, the weapon function has certainly not been a major consideration during the last centuries. While in other keris cultures the weapon function did not ceased (at least as much as colonial powers allowed and arguably well into modern times), other factors would have been just as important: esteemed cultural icon, symbol of manhood, display of status, group-connecting pusaka, etc.

If anything, a keris being weapon is currently the least acknowledged (if not downright disputed) function/meaning by the general populace in today's "keris-bearing" societies. A toy-like prop is good enough to represent as a wedding keris; even if you can afford more you better spend it on gifts, food, offerings, etc.

Regards,
Kai

29th December 2013, 01:28 PM	#1
rasjid Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Jakarta - Indonesia Posts: 114	Hi Alan, When you say : what is a keris, the we are talking about Pakem. Keris can be called Keris if its follow certain rules/or known knowledge amongs the rulers, ie Kraton. It will be called work of arts or keris keris-an if its not flowing with the Pakem. In short to call the keris is a legitimate keris, could be: 1. Follow the Pakem set by Kraton standard according to the era / tangguh of the Keris itself 2. A group of knowledgeable Keris seniors agreed about the Keris quality of workmanship and flow with the Tangguh. ( subject to neutral opinion... ) Another point, for newly made Keris, if acceptable by majority people and sold with High Price... can we call it a legitimate Keris? Regards Rasjid

29th December 2013, 07:35 PM	#2
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	THE FIRST TIME I SAW A DAGGER REFFERED TO AS A KRIS IT WAS A NEW POORLY MADE KNIFE WITH A WAVEY BLADE SAID TO BE A THROWING KNIFE. IT WAS A MONOSTEEL BLADE SHAPED WITH A POWER SAW WITH CRUDELY GROUND BLADE EDGES A CRUDE GAURD AND A WOOD HANDLE PAINTED BLACK WITH A GOLD PAINTED DRAGON DESIGN ON THE GRIP. A REAL PIECE OF JUNK BUT IT HAD A WAVEY BLADE SOMETHING NOT SEEN OFTEN, I ASSUMED IF ALL WAVEY BLADES WERE EITHER A KERIS OR A FLAMBU (FLAME SHAPED BLADE). I HAVE LEARNED MUCH SINCE THEN AND HAVE FOUND THE KERIS IS MUCH MORE COMPLICATED THAN JUST A WAVEY BLADE . MANY YEARS LATER I FIND I MAY BE A NOVICE AT BEST, BECAUSE THERE IS SO MUCH TO LEARN ABOUT THE KERIS. I JUST DABBLE AND DON'T PUT IN THE NECESSARY TIME NEEDED TO ADVANCE AND OFTEN TEND TO FORGET WHAT I LEARN AS I DON'T STICK WITH IT AND HAVE TOO MANY OTHER IRONS IN THE FIRE. I MOSTLY COLLECT WHAT I FIND ASCETICALY PLEASING TO ME AND DO ENJOY READING THE POSTS HERE THOUGH I DON'T HAVE THE KNOWLEGE TO ADD MUCH. A FEW THOUGHTS. THE BLADE IS WHAT MAKES A KERIS A KERIS. 1. KERIS BLADES ARE DOUBLE EDGED AND HAVE A SEPARATE PART TO THE BLADE NEAR THE FORTE. (A SINGLE EDGE AND A ONE PART BLADE DOES NOT A KERIS MAKE) 2. THERE ARE SEVERAL DIFFERENT VARIATIONS IN SHAPE TO KERIS BLADES STRAIGHT AS WELL AS WAVEY. 3. THE MANY BLADE PATTERNS SHOW REGION , MASTERY OF FORGEING AND HAVE DIFFERENT MEANINGS OR DENOTE VARIOUS POWERS. THIS IS JUST VERY BASIC AND I HOPE NOT INCORRECT OR MISLEADING THE MORE I WRITE THE MORE I FEEL I DO NOT KNOW MUCH SO WILL STOP HERE BEFORE I GOOF UP TOO BAD. AND LEAVE IT TO THOSE MORE DEVOTED TO THE KERIS TO LAY THE INFORMATION OUT.

29th December 2013, 08:47 PM	#3
Timo Nieminen Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 422	Since "keris" is a conventional taxonomic label, we are not free of collective opinion. For something to be a "real" keris, it must meet the requirements of the definition; some of these have been noted by Vandoo above. But here there is some plasticity. 1. Does a keris need to be forged? If the maker grinds the blade from a slab of steel, can it be a real keris? 2. Can anybody make a keris? Can a keris be made everywhere in the world, or only in certain places? I.e., does "keris" have similar status to "nihonto" ("real" Japanese sword)? 3. What degree of variation is permitted before it ceases to be a keris? From a weapons-collecting point of view, a key point is functionality as a weapon or bladed tool. This provides no answer for the three questions above. So it is insufficient for keris. (It is also insufficient for "nihonto".) Where the type of object in question is still in modern use, but the main use is not as a weapon or cutting tool (i.e., the main use is not actually cutting or stabbing things, or training to cut/stab things), perhaps physical function can mislead us. Based on physical function, I would not call a Bali tourist keris with an unsharpened sheet metal blade with painted-on "pamor" a real keris. To a weapons collector, it isn't "real" - it isn't a weapon. But perhaps it could be to a modern keris user. I don't know the answer, but am interested. So: 4. Can a "non-weapon" keris be "real"?