The Famous Ambras Wheellock-Crossbow Combination of ca. 1526, BNM Munich

Matchlock · 19th December 2013, 02:50 PM

More images.

Raf · 19th December 2013, 06:33 PM

I thought we had already established that in this case the button was the release button? Not to be confused with the button on some other early wheelocks which is used to manually push the sear into the wheel slot . Also that the small wing nut forward of the button has the dual function of ensuring the sear fully enters the wheel slot and also functions as a safety. The wheel cannot turn until this nut is unscrewed.
The shape of the cam on the base of the dog is unusual . But might be transitional towards locks where the dog, at rest, can be folded down below the line of the barrel . This can be seen on Leeds Armoury X11 1566 . C 1535.This feature is found on some , but not all , locks with sickle - shaped springs but then seems to have been abandoned in favour of a more conventional arrangement where the dog , at rest , lyes roughly in line with the barrel . Locks that may be equally early show a flat spring and a conventional over- centre cam on the base of the dog.

Matchlock · 19th December 2013, 10:08 PM

Hi Raf,

Don't you worry, we are on the same page; I just wanted to correct my earlier statement and make it perfectly clear what that knob actually is.

I attach images of my earliest snapping tinderlock mechanism, Maximilian I period, ca. 1500-20, which employs the same lateral push-button trigger.

Best,
Michael

Raf · 20th December 2013, 09:59 AM

... which of course makes a useful comparison with another early Italian lock you posted which I am re posting here. Uses the same long spring as a sear but is in this case released by a cam on the trigger rather than a button. Whats interesting about this lock is that the detent on the sear bar uses the same slot that operates the ( missing ) horizontally swivelling pan cover. Because the slot passes all the way through the wheel its highly unlikely to get blocked with rubbish therefore minimising the safety issues endemic to single locking bars.
Also the shape of the foot of the dog is very similar to the German lock which might be used to argue a much closer connection , at an early date between German and Italian locks even though Germany seems to have been quicker and better at developing the idea.
Iv'e never been convinced that Da Vincis drawing is , as some have argued , a device drawn from life and certainly isn't his unique invention. It looks more like a concept sketch of either a device he has seen , or has been described to him, or a device that he is trying to improve perhaps by suggesting that the parts could usefully be housed inside the lockplate. Placing the hinged locking bar on the outside of the lockplate is a clumsy solution , and the cranked mainspring simply silly. They may be drawn that way simply to make it easier to illustrate the principles involved so perhaps should not be taken to literally.

Matchlock · 20th December 2013, 12:10 PM

Totally agreed, Raf, and on Leonardo da Vinci's drawings as well.

They should in any case be taken cum grano salis.

What makes me think that wheellock mechanism from the combination gun in Venice that you reposted could be somewhat later than my tinderlock is the fact that the internal trigger release spring already employs a screw, instead of the plain rivet there is on my lock.

Here's another early snapping tinderlock from my collection with a highly interesting mechanism, ca. 1520's-30's. It is remarkable for having an internal tumbler and a double-arm serpentine main spring. It's all riveted and bolted, no screws.

Best,
Michael

Matchlock · 31st December 2013, 06:53 PM

Discussing earliest wheellocks, we may not forget this arquebus in the Musée de l'Armée, Paris. It is generally dated 'ca. 1520', which in my eyes is not justified.
The earliest date I would seriously assign to it is 'ca. 1525-35', with a main focus on 'ca. 1530'.
The stock is in all probability limewood, with a lesser possiblity of maple.

m

Matchlock · 31st December 2013, 07:06 PM

The remaining images.

19th December 2013, 02:50 PM	#1
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	More images. Attached Images

19th December 2013, 06:33 PM	#2
Raf Member Join Date: Nov 2013 Posts: 252	I thought we had already established that in this case the button was the release button? Not to be confused with the button on some other early wheelocks which is used to manually push the sear into the wheel slot . Also that the small wing nut forward of the button has the dual function of ensuring the sear fully enters the wheel slot and also functions as a safety. The wheel cannot turn until this nut is unscrewed. The shape of the cam on the base of the dog is unusual . But might be transitional towards locks where the dog, at rest, can be folded down below the line of the barrel . This can be seen on Leeds Armoury X11 1566 . C 1535.This feature is found on some , but not all , locks with sickle - shaped springs but then seems to have been abandoned in favour of a more conventional arrangement where the dog , at rest , lyes roughly in line with the barrel . Locks that may be equally early show a flat spring and a conventional over- centre cam on the base of the dog. Last edited by Raf; 19th December 2013 at 07:04 PM.

19th December 2013, 10:08 PM	#3
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Hi Raf, Don't you worry, we are on the same page; I just wanted to correct my earlier statement and make it perfectly clear what that knob actually is. I attach images of my earliest snapping tinderlock mechanism, Maximilian I period, ca. 1500-20, which employs the same lateral push-button trigger. Best, Michael Attached Images

20th December 2013, 09:59 AM	#4
Raf Member Join Date: Nov 2013 Posts: 252	... which of course makes a useful comparison with another early Italian lock you posted which I am re posting here. Uses the same long spring as a sear but is in this case released by a cam on the trigger rather than a button. Whats interesting about this lock is that the detent on the sear bar uses the same slot that operates the ( missing ) horizontally swivelling pan cover. Because the slot passes all the way through the wheel its highly unlikely to get blocked with rubbish therefore minimising the safety issues endemic to single locking bars. Also the shape of the foot of the dog is very similar to the German lock which might be used to argue a much closer connection , at an early date between German and Italian locks even though Germany seems to have been quicker and better at developing the idea. Iv'e never been convinced that Da Vincis drawing is , as some have argued , a device drawn from life and certainly isn't his unique invention. It looks more like a concept sketch of either a device he has seen , or has been described to him, or a device that he is trying to improve perhaps by suggesting that the parts could usefully be housed inside the lockplate. Placing the hinged locking bar on the outside of the lockplate is a clumsy solution , and the cranked mainspring simply silly. They may be drawn that way simply to make it easier to illustrate the principles involved so perhaps should not be taken to literally. Attached Images

20th December 2013, 12:10 PM	#5
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Totally agreed, Raf, and on Leonardo da Vinci's drawings as well. They should in any case be taken cum grano salis. What makes me think that wheellock mechanism from the combination gun in Venice that you reposted could be somewhat later than my tinderlock is the fact that the internal trigger release spring already employs a screw, instead of the plain rivet there is on my lock. Here's another early snapping tinderlock from my collection with a highly interesting mechanism, ca. 1520's-30's. It is remarkable for having an internal tumbler and a double-arm serpentine main spring. It's all riveted and bolted, no screws. Best, Michael Attached Images

31st December 2013, 06:53 PM	#6
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Discussing earliest wheellocks, we may not forget this arquebus in the Musée de l'Armée, Paris. It is generally dated 'ca. 1520', which in my eyes is not justified. The earliest date I would seriously assign to it is 'ca. 1525-35', with a main focus on 'ca. 1530'. The stock is in all probability limewood, with a lesser possiblity of maple. m Attached Images Last edited by Matchlock; 31st December 2013 at 07:52 PM.

31st December 2013, 07:06 PM	#7
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	The remaining images. Attached Images Last edited by Matchlock; 31st December 2013 at 07:27 PM.