Noth African sword

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Iain

Of course talismanic symbols from Europe can take on different meanings in various regions. However even degenerate forms like this one, they still retain the essential characteristics of the man in the moon mark. In this case the semi circles used to stamp the face, are merely the easiest way for the craftsman to achieve the desired pattern as he is not using a complete stamp. The three elements combine to create the distinctive nasal feature.

Salaams Iain ~ Thank you for your diagram illustrating the moon relating its so called facial character.

A lot of folks reading into arms of these regions will have no idea about the Talismanic or other marks on swords...but as you say (and I agree) "Of course talismanic symbols from Europe can take on different meanings in various regions".

If the moon is copied (onto African and Arabian Sword blades) Does the feature then take on another meaning altogether ? ... Is it then a man in the moon or something else? I suggest the latter... In which case it is not a man in the moon .. It becomes a Talismanic object reflecting a new moon in the sense of the region in which it now resides...something very different to its original application and meaning.

In the same way the cross may well have changed to a star or even a dot..

* . and the cross becomes a sign of light (the candle) The dot an indicator of the centre of the Universe...

For a couple of examples of copied moons see http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ttara+comments #326.


Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Iain]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams Iain ~ Thank you for your diagram illustrating the moon relating its so called facial character.

It is what it is and it has a face. Usually when paired on face is open eyed the other winking. As I already stated these symbols can take on different meanings in different cultures, however the retention of the facial features speaks strongly to the lineage of the mark.

A new moon as far as I'm aware in Islamic art is not illustrated with a face... As seen in the one example you linked an image of where it is simply a crescent.

In the context of African blades the mark retained much of its original form because it was a hallmark of quality and not merely an illustrative symbol.

In short, marks can take on multiple meanings, sometimes outside of their original context. But when this much of the form is retained it speaks volumes as to the influence of the original application.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Iain

It is what it is and it has a face. Usually when paired on face is open eyed the other winking. As I already stated these symbols can take on different meanings in different cultures, however the retention of the facial features speaks strongly to the lineage of the mark.

A new moon as far as I'm aware in Islamic art is not illustrated with a face... As seen in the one example you linked an image of where it is simply a crescent.

In the context of African blades the mark retained much of its original form because it was a hallmark of quality and not merely an illustrative symbol.

In short, marks can take on multiple meanings, sometimes outside of their original context. But when this much of the form is retained it speaks volumes as to the influence of the original application.

Salaams Iain,
So you agree that what we have here is quite an interesting linkage back to perhaps Juan Martinez, Toledo mid 16th C or Peter Munch Solingen 1595-1660, thus, a European Sword mark which has been transmitted onto trade blades and copied by local smiths all over the African region and Red Sea, Yemen etc in the last 250 years. The precisely named "man in the moon" insignia being copied and as a mark of excellence onto blades in the region and beyond. Originally probably placed with a magical quality being inferred... and reflected somewhat in the Islamic sense of Talismanic protection in the crescent moon illustration...with and without nose eyes mouth...

Thus it becomes a new moon in the afro/arabian sense from an original European man in the moon design.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Iain]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams Iain,
So you agree that what we have here is quite an interesting linkage back to perhaps Peter Munch and a European Sword mark which has been transmitted onto trade blades and copied by local smiths all over the African region and Red Sea, Yemen etc. The precisely named "man in the moon" insignia being copied and as a mark of excellence onto blades in the region and beyond. Originally probably placed with a magical quality being inferred... and reflected somewhat in the Islamic sense of Talismanic protection in the crescent moon illustration...with and without nose eyes mouth...

Thus it becomes a new moon in the afro/arabian sense from an original European man in the moon design.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

I agree there's a linkage, although I wouldn't attribute it solely to Munch. He was only one maker to use the symbol.

I don't agree it necessarily becomes a "new moon" in the African context. That's an over simplification in my opinion.

[CharlesS]

You may find this picture helpful. The flintlock rifle style suggests this picture was taken in Morocco, but does not necessarily limit that style of sword's usage to that area alone.

[Iain]

Originally Posted by CharlesS

You may find this picture helpful. The flintlock rifle style suggests this picture was taken in Morocco, but does not necessarily limit that style of sword's usage to that area alone.

Nice pic Charles, which seems to show an s'boula. These are usually slimmer than the piece at the start of this thread, but obviously a familial relation in hilt form. Perhaps the piece in this thread could be classed as one as well.

[CharlesS]

Iain,

I think if we can imagine the original sword in the thread with its complete, undamaged stylized "I" hilt as in the version below it could easily fall into the s'boula category. It seems as if this sword's lower hilt, or guard, uses leather as covering where they would more typically be brass covered.

The hilt certainly seems closer to that to me than, say, a kaskara or takouba....don't you think so? Also note the mid hilt bolt that is generally universally seen on s'boulas and compare the zig-zag carving midway on that example to the carving on the wooden portion of the hilt below.

The blade is, indeed, wider than the example below, but it has been cut down, clearly. Perhaps it was an attempt to mimic the s'boula???

[blue lander]

Thanks, that hilt looks quite similar although it doesn't seem to have the leather "bolster" mine has.

Does anybody have an example of what this blade mighty have looked like before it was cut down? Maybe something like this Gurade?
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=10460