H4ow to count Luk???

rasdan · 28th October 2013, 06:16 AM

G'day Alan,

Regarding your Pengging keris. Do you have any idea on why does the last luk was made in such a way?

If we assume that Jeans keris is not corroded badly, can we say that it have 5 luks if we count according to the Hindu counting method?

A. G. Maisey · 28th October 2013, 06:22 AM

No Rasdan, I do not. It seems to be a not particularly unusual characteristic in a Pengging keris, but why it was done I have no idea at all.

Re Jean's keris, yes, if we used the alternate method, it would be 5 luk.

rasdan · 28th October 2013, 07:36 AM

In that case, do you think that it is OK for us to assume that some Pengging's Empus adopted the Hindu luk counting method?

I have seen a positively absolutely "even" luk keris only once - on a Sulawesi Bugis keris. In Bugis culture they have 5 genders. Male, female, male but lived as female, female but lived as male and the last one is Bissu which is neither male or female or we can say that they have both attributes.

I am thinking that an "even" luk Bugis keris probably belonged to a Bissu, but if this is true then we should be able to see at least several examples as there had been countless Bissus since the dawn of time.

Probably only some Bissu decide to have an "even" luk keris. Or maybe it does not belong to a Bissu, but the maker used the Hindu luk counting system?

A. G. Maisey · 28th October 2013, 08:57 AM

Rasdan, I'm sorry, but I do not like to engage in speculation involving things I know nothing about. I know nothing about the relevant cultural practices of the Bugis people. I know nothing of the matters of which you write.

Regarding Pengging keris makers. Pengging was concurrent with Majapahit, but that does not mean that a keris that is classifiable as Pengging in accord with the Javanese system of tangguh necessarily originated in the time and/or area of Pengging. The Majapahit court was not exclusive of Islam, and Pengging was established by a Muslim official from the court of Majapahit.

Regarding "positively absolutely even luk" keris.

If the luk were counted using the current convention of count as practiced in Jawa it is a total impossibility to count an even number of luk.

Why is it so?

Because this convention demands that you finish the count on the same side that you started; if there is no luk you simply add one. You are not permitted to complete the count with an even number. We are dealing with a convention, not with an actuality.

This is what I have been specifically taught by two very senior keris people. Its not my idea, I'm only repeating what I've been told.

28th October 2013, 06:16 AM	#1
rasdan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kuala Lumpur Posts: 369	G'day Alan, Regarding your Pengging keris. Do you have any idea on why does the last luk was made in such a way? If we assume that Jeans keris is not corroded badly, can we say that it have 5 luks if we count according to the Hindu counting method?

28th October 2013, 06:22 AM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	No Rasdan, I do not. It seems to be a not particularly unusual characteristic in a Pengging keris, but why it was done I have no idea at all. Re Jean's keris, yes, if we used the alternate method, it would be 5 luk.

28th October 2013, 07:36 AM	#3
rasdan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kuala Lumpur Posts: 369	In that case, do you think that it is OK for us to assume that some Pengging's Empus adopted the Hindu luk counting method? I have seen a positively absolutely "even" luk keris only once - on a Sulawesi Bugis keris. In Bugis culture they have 5 genders. Male, female, male but lived as female, female but lived as male and the last one is Bissu which is neither male or female or we can say that they have both attributes. I am thinking that an "even" luk Bugis keris probably belonged to a Bissu, but if this is true then we should be able to see at least several examples as there had been countless Bissus since the dawn of time. Probably only some Bissu decide to have an "even" luk keris. Or maybe it does not belong to a Bissu, but the maker used the Hindu luk counting system?

28th October 2013, 08:57 AM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	Rasdan, I'm sorry, but I do not like to engage in speculation involving things I know nothing about. I know nothing about the relevant cultural practices of the Bugis people. I know nothing of the matters of which you write. Regarding Pengging keris makers. Pengging was concurrent with Majapahit, but that does not mean that a keris that is classifiable as Pengging in accord with the Javanese system of tangguh necessarily originated in the time and/or area of Pengging. The Majapahit court was not exclusive of Islam, and Pengging was established by a Muslim official from the court of Majapahit. Regarding "positively absolutely even luk" keris. If the luk were counted using the current convention of count as practiced in Jawa it is a total impossibility to count an even number of luk. Why is it so? Because this convention demands that you finish the count on the same side that you started; if there is no luk you simply add one. You are not permitted to complete the count with an even number. We are dealing with a convention, not with an actuality. This is what I have been specifically taught by two very senior keris people. Its not my idea, I'm only repeating what I've been told.