Ottoman hilt sabre with stirrup type knuckleguard

Gavin Nugent · 29th August 2013, 02:11 PM

Hi Iain,

Age, I do not know exactly as I am no longer in touch with my learned Hungarian friend, but I will endeavour to touch base with him again.

The blades vary in age but the sword as a sword appears to my eye to be circa 1800-1860...others may suggest they know the people still making them today

I've had several and lofty provides another but they all follow a chosen form, be it because of a required regulation pattern or a guild or workshops choice I am unaware.

Gavin

Jim McDougall · 29th August 2013, 07:53 PM

These astral themes as well as the lattice work at the forte on these blades to me suggests blades which were produced probably in Germany or other centers in the mid to latter 18th century. These 'hussar' type sabre blades have what is known as the 'hatchet' point which became best known on the British M1796 light cavalry sabre. These were developed from East European sabres with similar forms, but as various forms were considered they included other Eastern forms such as Ottoman kilij, shamshirs and even tulwars.

While it seems long believed that these were as suggested, for Ottoman forces, it should be noted that in the early years of the 19th century and after the Napoleonic campaigns in Egypt, the 'exotic' sabres of the famed Mamluks greatly influenced European tastes in weapons and military fashion. By the 1830s the sabres with Ottoman style hilts already in use by many officers in England and France had developed officially into what became known as the 'mameluke sabre' for officers.

In France and Austria thier armies had already been exposed to 'exotic' forces from the 1750s with the notorious 'pandour' regiments which were mostly Croatians, Hungarians and other Balkan ethnic groups. These forces served as auxiliary units with regular forces and became much feared for thier fierce and exotic appearance as well as outlaw depradations.
In later years these armies formed special and by then, actually somewhat elite units in the same styling performing light cavalry auxiliary duties etc.

I would suggest that perhaps these might have been cavalry sabres for these kinds of military units in either these European armies or possibly other of the Balkan countries, and recalling the Ottoman hilt form much as the mameluke sabres mentioned and probably in the early to mid 19th c.

Edster · 29th August 2013, 09:21 PM

I notice on both swords' cross guard what could be a joint line, perhaps indicating a forge weld. Is it possible that the stirrup and upswept parts are an addition / modification to existing hilts. Or am I just seeing things?

Ed

Gavin Nugent · 30th August 2013, 12:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edster

I notice on both swords' cross guard what could be a joint line, perhaps indicating a forge weld. Is it possible that the stirrup and upswept parts are an addition / modification to existing hilts. Or am I just seeing things?

Ed

Hi Edster,

You see correct. The manufacture principles of the steel quillon black and guard follows that of the Indian Tulwar, being made of sections forged together rather than a single casting.
I can also so that the examples I've held also have the guard attached to the steel grip strap at the pommel and have all displayed lead wiping of welding at this join?

Jim,

Well detailed as always and many possibilities provided for those who want to delve further.

Gav

29th August 2013, 02:11 PM	#1
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Hi Iain, Age, I do not know exactly as I am no longer in touch with my learned Hungarian friend, but I will endeavour to touch base with him again. The blades vary in age but the sword as a sword appears to my eye to be circa 1800-1860...others may suggest they know the people still making them today I've had several and lofty provides another but they all follow a chosen form, be it because of a required regulation pattern or a guild or workshops choice I am unaware. Gavin

29th August 2013, 07:53 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,194	These astral themes as well as the lattice work at the forte on these blades to me suggests blades which were produced probably in Germany or other centers in the mid to latter 18th century. These 'hussar' type sabre blades have what is known as the 'hatchet' point which became best known on the British M1796 light cavalry sabre. These were developed from East European sabres with similar forms, but as various forms were considered they included other Eastern forms such as Ottoman kilij, shamshirs and even tulwars. While it seems long believed that these were as suggested, for Ottoman forces, it should be noted that in the early years of the 19th century and after the Napoleonic campaigns in Egypt, the 'exotic' sabres of the famed Mamluks greatly influenced European tastes in weapons and military fashion. By the 1830s the sabres with Ottoman style hilts already in use by many officers in England and France had developed officially into what became known as the 'mameluke sabre' for officers. In France and Austria thier armies had already been exposed to 'exotic' forces from the 1750s with the notorious 'pandour' regiments which were mostly Croatians, Hungarians and other Balkan ethnic groups. These forces served as auxiliary units with regular forces and became much feared for thier fierce and exotic appearance as well as outlaw depradations. In later years these armies formed special and by then, actually somewhat elite units in the same styling performing light cavalry auxiliary duties etc. I would suggest that perhaps these might have been cavalry sabres for these kinds of military units in either these European armies or possibly other of the Balkan countries, and recalling the Ottoman hilt form much as the mameluke sabres mentioned and probably in the early to mid 19th c.

29th August 2013, 09:21 PM	#3
Edster Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 411	I notice on both swords' cross guard what could be a joint line, perhaps indicating a forge weld. Is it possible that the stirrup and upswept parts are an addition / modification to existing hilts. Or am I just seeing things? Ed