Smallsword hilted Spadroon

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Dmitry

British officers in 1780 buying French-supplied swords...highly unlikely.
Much like British officers buying German-supplied pistols in 1940..

Stylistically this hilt could date to as early as 1750, the blade, however, is of later style. If Norman's sword is an authentic period piece with undisturbed tang button, then for me the blade outweighs the hilt in dating the sword.
Hilts of this type are not infrequently seen on European officers' swords. For a similar hilt, refer to the Piedmontese Modello 1770 officer's spada a Frantopino. Silver-plated, not yellow brass, but otherwise not too far apart.

Actually, once again. I might have better worded my comment. Rather than French 'supplying' blades for British officers swords in 1780, perhaps it may have been better to say....French marked blades existed on some British swords in the period around 1780. Obviously the Revolution in America in which the French were virtually allied with the colonists would have discouraged such trade.
The sword which I was thinking of was actually a brass hilted cavalry officers half basket hilt which I once owned, with a blade with French purveyors name inscribed on the back. It was presumed c.1780 or slightly earlier and virtually identical hilt in iron is shown in "The British Basket Hilted Cavalry Sword" , A.D.Darling , Canadian Journal of Arms Collecting", Vol.7 #3, 1974, fog. 16, p.95.
This hilt, nearly identical to mine in brass, was diagonally gadrooned on the hilt branches as well as the pommel. It is dated 1765 as shown in a painting of that date of Henry Herbert, Earl of Pembroke as Colonel of the 1st Dragoons, painted by Sir Joshua Reynolds. It is noted by the author that these 'wavy' three bar hilts were also adopted by the 2nd Irish Horse (5th Dragoons) in the last quarter of the 18th century.

Naturally in a stylistic sense hilts with these neoclassic characteristics recall much earlier designs reflecting late baroque fashion , so similar examples may be seen not only far earlier but in those of other countries.
Of course the blade form would take precedence, and as noted it does appear of the 1770s-80s period spadroon forms.

Returning to Normans example, the reference to British style hilts aside, I had noted that the Dutch in this period seem to have in degree followed British type forms. Perhaps this could be broadened to neoclassic styles of earlier hilts of varying countries.

I just found the reference in "The Rapier and Smallsword 1460-1820", A.V.B Norman , London, 1980, p.206.
The author describing hilts around 1779 (with one being noted having Amsterdam mark for that year) notes that , "...Dutch hilts seem to have followed English fashions", with the detail noting adoption of certain elements and 'vestigial claws' on the hilt. While not specifically with regard to the gadrooned fluting, the suggestion of English influence, likely including those of the sword previously described, may well have been included in the fashioning of this hilt in the Netherlands.

[Jim McDougall]

Interestingly, the diffusion of these classical styled hilts was widespread with the popularity and presumption of fashion and style in the upper echelons. Returning to the British officers brass hilt half basket I previously described of 1765, I recall having found a similar example shown in Stone, p.151, fig. 2 and remarkably listed as a broadsword, 'Italian 17th c.'!!!!
While we know this venerable work has numerous errors as may be expected with such a comprehensive scope, this seems almost too blatant to have been one. Yet perhaps the suggestion of the melding of these classic forms through fashion oriented channels may have simply misdated the period, and such hilts indeed been found in Italian context, but with possibly a British officer? Despite the fact that these, as were all British cavalry swords of the mid to latter 18th c., were backswords, not broadswords, this one seems to have found its way into Stones 'broadsword' grouping, most likely for the 'basket' type hilt.

Did not mean to derail the thread here, but wanted to readdress the 'classical' styling in English hilts of latter 18th century and amalgamation of Continental features.

[Dmitry]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Actually, once again. I might have better worded my comment. Rather than French 'supplying' blades for British officers swords in 1780, perhaps it may have been better to say....French marked blades existed on some British swords in the period around 1780. Obviously the Revolution in America in which the French were virtually allied with the colonists would have discouraged such trade.

Jim, I would say that at that time there was no blade trade between France and England to speak of; the sword you had probably was mounted with a captured French blade. I have seen examples of that nature, and own one. That practice went both ways. One can find French Revolutionary and Napoleonic periods officers' swords with English blades as well. Either variants are not very common, but if one applies oneself, they can be found.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Dmitry

Jim, I would say that at that time there was no blade trade between France and England to speak of; the sword you had probably was mounted with a captured French blade. I have seen examples of that nature, and own one. That practice went both ways. One can find French Revolutionary and Napoleonic periods officers' swords with English blades as well. Either variants are not very common, but if one applies oneself, they can be found.

Very much agree Dmitry, no commercial trade of blades, but perhaps the 'social' venues and even the fraternal such as Masonic and orders which transcended political and often even religious boundaries could account for such blade anomalies. At the time I had the sword I described I virtually had no idea how unusual it was for a French blade to be in a British sword.

With Norman's sword this unusual and presumably French blade seems to represent well this kind of diffusion, in this case a classical style hilt of elegant fashion known in England but apparantly in Dutch context. If only this were a silver hilt we would have marks, but being brass it is hard to say.

These kinds of hybrids are always fascinating, and wish we would see more posted here. If I find photos of the one I had I will definitely post them....geez I wish I hadnt sold it!!!!