Smallsword hilted Spadroon

[Dmitry]

Hi, Norman.
2 1/2 inches is too wide for a sword knot lanyard. I think it maybe an officer's sash or a scarf, or a civilian patriotic sash, like a town mayor's, assembly members, etc., or a medal/order shoulder sash, or something along those lines.
35 1/2 inches is a few inches short for a sash, but like you said, it may have been torn off at the ends.
Sometimes the red dye fades to orange over time, being that it was probably dyed in some type of organic substance.

Look at this example, also silk. Red is pretty much gone.




I think 1760s is a bit earlier than I would put on it, l'd date it from the 1780s-1790s.

[Norman McCormick]

Hi Dmitry,
Many thanks for your input. When I first saw this piece my initial thoughts were that the silk was some sort of patriotic display with faded red, white and blue and my first instinct pointed to revolutionary France but of course red, white and blue is in a way the worst of all combinations in that many countries have these three in some form or other, U.K., Rev. France, Netherlands after 1795 and of course North America amongst others. I think I will have to see if I can contact the textile expert at Kelvingrove Museum to determine if the original colour is indeed red or orange. The orange colour is quite even where the cloth was knotted/folded and I did think that if it had been red some vestiges, however small, of red would have remained in these folds and if not at least a noticeable progression of fading. I tend to agree that the silk is not a sword knot but more of a show of patriotism or expression of loyalty etc,. Thanks for your interest.
My Regards,
Norman.

P.S. I based my dating on similar pieces on the net, albeit very few, and indeed the sword in the Man at Arms article, although of course not an exact match, is described as typical for pieces 1750-1770 but I suppose a certain fluidity of style was quite common throughout the 18thC and therefore exact dating somewhat speculative. You of course have the advantage over me having handled many more pieces of this vintage.

[Norman McCormick]

Hi,
Today I've been in touch with the textile conservator to the Burrell Collection and asked her advice with regard to the original colour of the silk. Her considered opinion is that orange would have been the original colour therefore we have an orange, white and blue tricolour. Red pigment of this vintage would, according to her, have left a noticeable pinkness however slight and vestiges of red however small and faded would be apparent in the knotted/folded part of the material. With the aforementioned in mind it is now possible there is a Dutch association with this sword. Many thanks to all who have contributed to this thread and if you have any more ideas or opinions please let's hear them.
My Regards to All,
Norman.

[Jim McDougall]

I think the suggestion of this attached material is indeed most likely a patriotic sash, as well described by Dmitry. This period of the American and French revolutions was of course wrought with such devices displayed on weapons and aparrel.
It also seems that some British officers swords of c.1780 were also constructed of gilt brass, and similarly 'gadrooned' (the spiral fluting on this pommel, often on grips and guard bars/knuckleguards). I had one of these with a blade inscribed on the back with the French makers name, so it would seem that French purveyors were indeed supplying British in these times.
It seems that I read somewhere (I believe it was AVB Norman as I cannot relocate in Aylward) that the Dutch often followed British styles in swords in this period.
I still hold to the idea that this is quite likely a Dutch weapon with a French supplied blade, and c.1780-90.

[Norman McCormick]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

I think the suggestion of this attached material is indeed most likely a patriotic sash, as well described by Dmitry.
I still hold to the idea that this is quite likely a Dutch weapon with a French supplied blade, and c.1780-90.

This would seem the most likely attribution with the current available evidence. Thanks again to all who contributed.
Regards,
Norman.

[Dmitry]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

It also seems that some British officers swords of c.1780 were also constructed of gilt brass, and similarly 'gadrooned' (the spiral fluting on this pommel, often on grips and guard bars/knuckleguards). I had one of these with a blade inscribed on the back with the French makers name, so it would seem that French purveyors were indeed supplying British in these times.

British officers in 1780 buying French-supplied swords...highly unlikely.
Much like British officers buying German-supplied pistols in 1940..

Stylistically this hilt could date to as early as 1750, the blade, however, is of later style. If Norman's sword is an authentic period piece with undisturbed tang button, then for me the blade outweighs the hilt in dating the sword.
Hilts of this type are not infrequently seen on European officers' swords. For a similar hilt, refer to the Piedmontese Modello 1770 officer's spada a Frantopino. Silver-plated, not yellow brass, but otherwise not too far apart.

[Norman McCormick]

Hi,
Tang button photo attached, it looks undisturbed to me but you never know?
Regards,
Norman.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Dmitry

British officers in 1780 buying French-supplied swords...highly unlikely.
Much like British officers buying German-supplied pistols in 1940..

Stylistically this hilt could date to as early as 1750, the blade, however, is of later style. If Norman's sword is an authentic period piece with undisturbed tang button, then for me the blade outweighs the hilt in dating the sword.
Hilts of this type are not infrequently seen on European officers' swords. For a similar hilt, refer to the Piedmontese Modello 1770 officer's spada a Frantopino. Silver-plated, not yellow brass, but otherwise not too far apart.

Actually, once again. I might have better worded my comment. Rather than French 'supplying' blades for British officers swords in 1780, perhaps it may have been better to say....French marked blades existed on some British swords in the period around 1780. Obviously the Revolution in America in which the French were virtually allied with the colonists would have discouraged such trade.
The sword which I was thinking of was actually a brass hilted cavalry officers half basket hilt which I once owned, with a blade with French purveyors name inscribed on the back. It was presumed c.1780 or slightly earlier and virtually identical hilt in iron is shown in "The British Basket Hilted Cavalry Sword" , A.D.Darling , Canadian Journal of Arms Collecting", Vol.7 #3, 1974, fog. 16, p.95.
This hilt, nearly identical to mine in brass, was diagonally gadrooned on the hilt branches as well as the pommel. It is dated 1765 as shown in a painting of that date of Henry Herbert, Earl of Pembroke as Colonel of the 1st Dragoons, painted by Sir Joshua Reynolds. It is noted by the author that these 'wavy' three bar hilts were also adopted by the 2nd Irish Horse (5th Dragoons) in the last quarter of the 18th century.

Naturally in a stylistic sense hilts with these neoclassic characteristics recall much earlier designs reflecting late baroque fashion , so similar examples may be seen not only far earlier but in those of other countries.
Of course the blade form would take precedence, and as noted it does appear of the 1770s-80s period spadroon forms.

Returning to Normans example, the reference to British style hilts aside, I had noted that the Dutch in this period seem to have in degree followed British type forms. Perhaps this could be broadened to neoclassic styles of earlier hilts of varying countries.

I just found the reference in "The Rapier and Smallsword 1460-1820", A.V.B Norman , London, 1980, p.206.
The author describing hilts around 1779 (with one being noted having Amsterdam mark for that year) notes that , "...Dutch hilts seem to have followed English fashions", with the detail noting adoption of certain elements and 'vestigial claws' on the hilt. While not specifically with regard to the gadrooned fluting, the suggestion of English influence, likely including those of the sword previously described, may well have been included in the fashioning of this hilt in the Netherlands.

[Jim McDougall]

Interestingly, the diffusion of these classical styled hilts was widespread with the popularity and presumption of fashion and style in the upper echelons. Returning to the British officers brass hilt half basket I previously described of 1765, I recall having found a similar example shown in Stone, p.151, fig. 2 and remarkably listed as a broadsword, 'Italian 17th c.'!!!!
While we know this venerable work has numerous errors as may be expected with such a comprehensive scope, this seems almost too blatant to have been one. Yet perhaps the suggestion of the melding of these classic forms through fashion oriented channels may have simply misdated the period, and such hilts indeed been found in Italian context, but with possibly a British officer? Despite the fact that these, as were all British cavalry swords of the mid to latter 18th c., were backswords, not broadswords, this one seems to have found its way into Stones 'broadsword' grouping, most likely for the 'basket' type hilt.

Did not mean to derail the thread here, but wanted to readdress the 'classical' styling in English hilts of latter 18th century and amalgamation of Continental features.

[Dmitry]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Actually, once again. I might have better worded my comment. Rather than French 'supplying' blades for British officers swords in 1780, perhaps it may have been better to say....French marked blades existed on some British swords in the period around 1780. Obviously the Revolution in America in which the French were virtually allied with the colonists would have discouraged such trade.

Jim, I would say that at that time there was no blade trade between France and England to speak of; the sword you had probably was mounted with a captured French blade. I have seen examples of that nature, and own one. That practice went both ways. One can find French Revolutionary and Napoleonic periods officers' swords with English blades as well. Either variants are not very common, but if one applies oneself, they can be found.