Chinese Jian Clean-up Question

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 23rd July 2013, 06:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neil

I have this interesting old jian pictured below and I was hoping to clean it up a little. Its a pretty long one at 33" total without the scabbard. Sorry about the mediocre pictures. I am trying to get this done quickly with kids abound on a Sunday morning. As you can see the brass dragon face guard is very heavily patina-ed. I have tried to oil it up and work it with a stiff nylon brush, and also scrubbed it with brass wool. Both had little to no effect. Does anyone have a suggestions related to brass clean-up that might help. Thanks you in advance for your input.

Salaams Neil,
I know nothing about Chinese Jian save what I have learned on this thread and others. I have , however just placed a good cleaning tip...see http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...8&page=4&pp=30 where I illustrate http://robertbeauford.net/cleaning_ancient_coins

It is true that overcleaning can wreck objects, however, I think a study of the details contained in this site can be of some help.

I too have questions .. Is the item old? Could this be a new item ? I have my suspicions..

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Battara · 23rd July 2013, 11:47 PM

When it comes to brass and especially bronze, patina needs to be there or else the value is ruined. What you did with a tooth brush is plenty. Besides, many collectors like the patina and if no patina, then it looks recent (no good for resale).

Neil · 24th July 2013, 03:05 PM

Thanks for your thoughts guys. Learning about the salt and vinegar method was very interesting. I will be adding it to my bag of tricks for sure.

In regards to the authenticity of the piece I am quite confident that it is a true antique example. This form with the stylized guard is well documented and appears to fall under the "later Qing era" category. That being said, its my opinion that this broad designation leaves a lot to be desired in telling the story of this sword and its past. These types of jian have really left me with a lot of questions. Related to their place of origin I have read others say they are from the Longquan area in the southwest part of Zhejiang Province. I have also read others theorize they were used by Chinese gentry as symbols of Chinese cultural identity in a Manchu governed country. As much as I appreciate hearing this and its potential for truth, I have yet to find out what evidence led others to these ideas. Honestly thats just the tip of the iceberg. For me the world of antique Chinese weapons is just one question after another. Of course thats the fun of it.

I am still sitting on the fence on how to move forward with the clean-up. I agree with the other voices that the salt and vinegar method is a big step. I would personally prefer some middle ground between where it is now and the method just mentioned. I have another example I will photograph that is right at the happy medium I like. I will do my best to post some additional pictures of both pieces later today.

In the mean time here are a couple photos of an old jian that someone went all the way on with the clean up. I think it looks pretty nice. If you were to rub your face with your fingers and then rub down the fittings periodically the brass would mellow quite nicely after a couple years.

Neil · 26th July 2013, 05:21 PM

Here are the additional pictures. The guard on the shorter jian definitely has a more refined casting. For my tastes its state of preservation is much nicer than the longer one. Of course the longer one is still a very interesting piece. Note the double dragons on the scabbard fitting.

Does anyone have any thoughts on the type of hide the scabbard is covered with. It is soft and relatively thin.

The shorter jian was certainly sharpened for service and shows a high liklyhood of use. I thought others might appreciate the last picture of its edge geometries and wear marks.

josh stout · 31st July 2013, 07:45 PM

Neil-

As you know dating Chinese things is problematic at best, but both jian appear to me to be perhaps over the boarder into the Republican era. The longer one in particular does not appear Qing. Longer jian supposedly are more common in the Republican period, and the double rivet in the handle is not something I have seen in Qing work.

A closeup of the tip might reveal if it is sanmai and/or heat treated. I have bought a few from that period, and their construction is more varied than the already huge variation in Chinese things. The rather crude casting is typical of the period, and the blackening may have been intentional. If it was artificially aged in the 30's does that count as history? I have also seen a similar patina on a jian from circa 1870 collected in Sumatra, so enough heat and humidity can produce a similar result over time. One of my favorite jian is a 1930's or so copy of a Qing example that was carefully polished over its whole life. I love the bright look, but it has already mellowed hanging on my wall, compared to when it arrived, and I am not planning on polishing it.

Anyway, I guess my answer would be polish it if you like it that way, but don't expect it to look right for a few years after.

And please see if you can show the blade construction. For me that is the dividing line between a good sword and something for kids to hack away with as evidenced by the edge to edge damage.
Josh

24th July 2013, 03:05 PM	#3
Neil Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Wisconsin Posts: 114	Thanks for your thoughts guys. Learning about the salt and vinegar method was very interesting. I will be adding it to my bag of tricks for sure. In regards to the authenticity of the piece I am quite confident that it is a true antique example. This form with the stylized guard is well documented and appears to fall under the "later Qing era" category. That being said, its my opinion that this broad designation leaves a lot to be desired in telling the story of this sword and its past. These types of jian have really left me with a lot of questions. Related to their place of origin I have read others say they are from the Longquan area in the southwest part of Zhejiang Province. I have also read others theorize they were used by Chinese gentry as symbols of Chinese cultural identity in a Manchu governed country. As much as I appreciate hearing this and its potential for truth, I have yet to find out what evidence led others to these ideas. Honestly thats just the tip of the iceberg. For me the world of antique Chinese weapons is just one question after another. Of course thats the fun of it. I am still sitting on the fence on how to move forward with the clean-up. I agree with the other voices that the salt and vinegar method is a big step. I would personally prefer some middle ground between where it is now and the method just mentioned. I have another example I will photograph that is right at the happy medium I like. I will do my best to post some additional pictures of both pieces later today. In the mean time here are a couple photos of an old jian that someone went all the way on with the clean up. I think it looks pretty nice. If you were to rub your face with your fingers and then rub down the fittings periodically the brass would mellow quite nicely after a couple years. Attached Images

26th July 2013, 05:21 PM	#4
Neil Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Wisconsin Posts: 114	Here are the additional pictures. The guard on the shorter jian definitely has a more refined casting. For my tastes its state of preservation is much nicer than the longer one. Of course the longer one is still a very interesting piece. Note the double dragons on the scabbard fitting. Does anyone have any thoughts on the type of hide the scabbard is covered with. It is soft and relatively thin. The shorter jian was certainly sharpened for service and shows a high liklyhood of use. I thought others might appreciate the last picture of its edge geometries and wear marks. Attached Images

23rd July 2013, 11:47 PM	#2
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,270	When it comes to brass and especially bronze, patina needs to be there or else the value is ruined. What you did with a tooth brush is plenty. Besides, many collectors like the patina and if no patina, then it looks recent (no good for resale).

31st July 2013, 07:45 PM	#5
josh stout Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 407	Neil- As you know dating Chinese things is problematic at best, but both jian appear to me to be perhaps over the boarder into the Republican era. The longer one in particular does not appear Qing. Longer jian supposedly are more common in the Republican period, and the double rivet in the handle is not something I have seen in Qing work. A closeup of the tip might reveal if it is sanmai and/or heat treated. I have bought a few from that period, and their construction is more varied than the already huge variation in Chinese things. The rather crude casting is typical of the period, and the blackening may have been intentional. If it was artificially aged in the 30's does that count as history? I have also seen a similar patina on a jian from circa 1870 collected in Sumatra, so enough heat and humidity can produce a similar result over time. One of my favorite jian is a 1930's or so copy of a Qing example that was carefully polished over its whole life. I love the bright look, but it has already mellowed hanging on my wall, compared to when it arrived, and I am not planning on polishing it. Anyway, I guess my answer would be polish it if you like it that way, but don't expect it to look right for a few years after. And please see if you can show the blade construction. For me that is the dividing line between a good sword and something for kids to hack away with as evidenced by the edge to edge damage. Josh