Smallsword hilted Spadroon

Hotspur · 23rd July 2013, 02:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Norman McCormick

Flag of the Seven United Netherlands 1581-1795.

Well, ha

There you go

GC

Dmitry · 23rd July 2013, 04:53 PM

Hi, this doesn't look like a sword knot, but I have another idea. How wide and how long is this fabric?

Norman McCormick · 23rd July 2013, 06:59 PM

Hi Dmitry,
The material is 35 1/2 inches long and 2 1/2 inches wide. The ends are quite frayed and I couldn't guarantee that there hasn't been loss to the length. The colours on close inspection do look like orange, white and blue rather than what I assumed at first i.e faded red with white and blue but as I am not at all familiar with dyes, silk and the effect of 200yrs plus exposure I cant be sure. I did photograph the silk at the point where it was knotted/folded where the colours were not totally exposed to daylight but on the other hand time may be an issue with some dyestuffs as well as exposure to light. Hope this is of help.
My Regards,
Norman.

Dmitry · 23rd July 2013, 07:50 PM

Hi, Norman.
2 1/2 inches is too wide for a sword knot lanyard. I think it maybe an officer's sash or a scarf, or a civilian patriotic sash, like a town mayor's, assembly members, etc., or a medal/order shoulder sash, or something along those lines.
35 1/2 inches is a few inches short for a sash, but like you said, it may have been torn off at the ends.
Sometimes the red dye fades to orange over time, being that it was probably dyed in some type of organic substance.

Look at this example, also silk. Red is pretty much gone.

I think 1760s is a bit earlier than I would put on it, l'd date it from the 1780s-1790s.

Norman McCormick · 23rd July 2013, 09:16 PM

Hi Dmitry,
Many thanks for your input. When I first saw this piece my initial thoughts were that the silk was some sort of patriotic display with faded red, white and blue and my first instinct pointed to revolutionary France but of course red, white and blue is in a way the worst of all combinations in that many countries have these three in some form or other, U.K., Rev. France, Netherlands after 1795 and of course North America amongst others. I think I will have to see if I can contact the textile expert at Kelvingrove Museum to determine if the original colour is indeed red or orange. The orange colour is quite even where the cloth was knotted/folded and I did think that if it had been red some vestiges, however small, of red would have remained in these folds and if not at least a noticeable progression of fading. I tend to agree that the silk is not a sword knot but more of a show of patriotism or expression of loyalty etc,. Thanks for your interest.
My Regards,
Norman.

P.S. I based my dating on similar pieces on the net, albeit very few, and indeed the sword in the Man at Arms article, although of course not an exact match, is described as typical for pieces 1750-1770 but I suppose a certain fluidity of style was quite common throughout the 18thC and therefore exact dating somewhat speculative. You of course have the advantage over me having handled many more pieces of this vintage.

Norman McCormick · 24th July 2013, 06:27 PM

Hi,
Today I've been in touch with the textile conservator to the Burrell Collection and asked her advice with regard to the original colour of the silk. Her considered opinion is that orange would have been the original colour therefore we have an orange, white and blue tricolour. Red pigment of this vintage would, according to her, have left a noticeable pinkness however slight and vestiges of red however small and faded would be apparent in the knotted/folded part of the material. With the aforementioned in mind it is now possible there is a Dutch association with this sword. Many thanks to all who have contributed to this thread and if you have any more ideas or opinions please let's hear them.
My Regards to All,
Norman.

Jim McDougall · 25th July 2013, 01:11 AM

I think the suggestion of this attached material is indeed most likely a patriotic sash, as well described by Dmitry. This period of the American and French revolutions was of course wrought with such devices displayed on weapons and aparrel.
It also seems that some British officers swords of c.1780 were also constructed of gilt brass, and similarly 'gadrooned' (the spiral fluting on this pommel, often on grips and guard bars/knuckleguards). I had one of these with a blade inscribed on the back with the French makers name, so it would seem that French purveyors were indeed supplying British in these times.
It seems that I read somewhere (I believe it was AVB Norman as I cannot relocate in Aylward) that the Dutch often followed British styles in swords in this period.
I still hold to the idea that this is quite likely a Dutch weapon with a French supplied blade, and c.1780-90.

23rd July 2013, 04:53 PM	#2
Dmitry Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 607	Hi, this doesn't look like a sword knot, but I have another idea. How wide and how long is this fabric?

23rd July 2013, 06:59 PM	#3
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,618	Hi Dmitry, The material is 35 1/2 inches long and 2 1/2 inches wide. The ends are quite frayed and I couldn't guarantee that there hasn't been loss to the length. The colours on close inspection do look like orange, white and blue rather than what I assumed at first i.e faded red with white and blue but as I am not at all familiar with dyes, silk and the effect of 200yrs plus exposure I cant be sure. I did photograph the silk at the point where it was knotted/folded where the colours were not totally exposed to daylight but on the other hand time may be an issue with some dyestuffs as well as exposure to light. Hope this is of help. My Regards, Norman.

23rd July 2013, 07:50 PM	#4
Dmitry Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 607	Hi, Norman. 2 1/2 inches is too wide for a sword knot lanyard. I think it maybe an officer's sash or a scarf, or a civilian patriotic sash, like a town mayor's, assembly members, etc., or a medal/order shoulder sash, or something along those lines. 35 1/2 inches is a few inches short for a sash, but like you said, it may have been torn off at the ends. Sometimes the red dye fades to orange over time, being that it was probably dyed in some type of organic substance. Look at this example, also silk. Red is pretty much gone. I think 1760s is a bit earlier than I would put on it, l'd date it from the 1780s-1790s.

23rd July 2013, 09:16 PM	#5
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,618	Hi Dmitry, Many thanks for your input. When I first saw this piece my initial thoughts were that the silk was some sort of patriotic display with faded red, white and blue and my first instinct pointed to revolutionary France but of course red, white and blue is in a way the worst of all combinations in that many countries have these three in some form or other, U.K., Rev. France, Netherlands after 1795 and of course North America amongst others. I think I will have to see if I can contact the textile expert at Kelvingrove Museum to determine if the original colour is indeed red or orange. The orange colour is quite even where the cloth was knotted/folded and I did think that if it had been red some vestiges, however small, of red would have remained in these folds and if not at least a noticeable progression of fading. I tend to agree that the silk is not a sword knot but more of a show of patriotism or expression of loyalty etc,. Thanks for your interest. My Regards, Norman. P.S. I based my dating on similar pieces on the net, albeit very few, and indeed the sword in the Man at Arms article, although of course not an exact match, is described as typical for pieces 1750-1770 but I suppose a certain fluidity of style was quite common throughout the 18thC and therefore exact dating somewhat speculative. You of course have the advantage over me having handled many more pieces of this vintage.

24th July 2013, 06:27 PM	#6
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,618	Hi, Today I've been in touch with the textile conservator to the Burrell Collection and asked her advice with regard to the original colour of the silk. Her considered opinion is that orange would have been the original colour therefore we have an orange, white and blue tricolour. Red pigment of this vintage would, according to her, have left a noticeable pinkness however slight and vestiges of red however small and faded would be apparent in the knotted/folded part of the material. With the aforementioned in mind it is now possible there is a Dutch association with this sword. Many thanks to all who have contributed to this thread and if you have any more ideas or opinions please let's hear them. My Regards to All, Norman.

25th July 2013, 01:11 AM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	I think the suggestion of this attached material is indeed most likely a patriotic sash, as well described by Dmitry. This period of the American and French revolutions was of course wrought with such devices displayed on weapons and aparrel. It also seems that some British officers swords of c.1780 were also constructed of gilt brass, and similarly 'gadrooned' (the spiral fluting on this pommel, often on grips and guard bars/knuckleguards). I had one of these with a blade inscribed on the back with the French makers name, so it would seem that French purveyors were indeed supplying British in these times. It seems that I read somewhere (I believe it was AVB Norman as I cannot relocate in Aylward) that the Dutch often followed British styles in swords in this period. I still hold to the idea that this is quite likely a Dutch weapon with a French supplied blade, and c.1780-90.