Antique blade... roman, celtic, iliria?

ariel · 21st October 2005, 09:21 PM

Not my area at all, but ... It looks too good and intact for a 7th century iron sword. I would expect more rust, less even edges and no what I think are clearly visible and demarkated areas looking like grindstone marks.
Overall, this looks like a oversize beer bottle opener

TVV · 21st October 2005, 09:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

Not my area at all, but ... It looks too good and intact for a 7th century iron sword. I would expect more rust, less even edges and no what I think are clearly visible and demarkated areas looking like grindstone marks.
Overall, this looks like a oversize beer bottle opener

I completely agree: the pitting is comparable to that of a poorlly maintained late 19th century bayonet or sword, for example. And the brass on ancient pieces tends to be well patinated and green in appearance, while the alloy on this one exhibits no patination whatsoever. Unfortunately recently while browsing eBay I cannot help but notice the enormous amount of "ancient" weapons: mahairas, "Byzantine", "Celtic" and "Roman" daggers and swords, all coming from a few sellers who appear to have endless supplies of them and all with the vague "found in the Balkans" description. Determining the authenticity of ancient artefacts is a very hard task, and even museum curators get fooled often. Miyamoto, did you obtain this piece from a treaure hunter/archeologist near the spot of its supposed origin, or did you acquire it second- ot third-hand through the internet? While the answer to this question will not prove anything, it may point you to the right direction.

Miyamoto · 21st October 2005, 11:26 PM

Hi and thanks for your opinions!

However, I'm avsolutely certain, that the dagger is at least 1000 years old. It looks antique manufacture and it evens smells like one. Also the color of the material used ( i think of a misture of bronze and iron not visibile on my poor photos) is verry antique looking. As I said I've bought it from a local "treasre hunter" (I live only 30 km away from Castorum at Frigidum) and beeing an aquitance of mine, I'll exclude that he lied to me. He even showed me the place where he exavated it.

Your points are verry clear and understandable.I can understand your thoughts, I also thought that my friend was trying to fool me around a little.
However you have to know that beeing verry unexperienced in the field, he had cleaned the dagger up extensively, immediately after he had found it. That would explain thoose file marks and no substantial pitting on the surface. Lower pitting is also atributed to the fact that in antique times the place where the dagger was found was wasteland. So if it were initially in burried the mood, not a lot of oxygen would be near the blade for a tousand of years. In the middle ages there were a mass population growth and they had dried up those terrain. In fact the dagger was found 1.5 meters deep underground in a strate of solid and compressed black terrain. I had a to say a big

when I've took a look at that hole!

Another thing. If you take a look at the third (side view) photo, you'd see a a small piece wich was not touched, look right in between the two gold pieces attached. It is hardly to see it cos the photo is a little blurry but I can assure you that it is a 1.5mm strait of green patina.

I've aquired quite a lot of stuff, toghether with that dagger, all roman stuff (evena a wolf - Lupa Romana), but it was found more than 300 meter away from the site of that dagger, so I cannot atribuite for certain to the romans. There was a lot more more of that fibulas.

Ariel: It would be fine to see a found someday an skeleton of an ancient Slavic Staresina, haveing his bottle of beer quietly

Miyamoto · 22nd October 2005, 12:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TVV

Unfortunately recently while browsing eBay I cannot help but notice the enormous amount of "ancient" weapons: mahairas, "Byzantine", "Celtic" and "Roman" daggers and swords, all coming from a few sellers who appear to have endless supplies of them and all with the vague "found in the Balkans" description. Determining the authenticity of ancient artefacts is a very hard task, and even museum curators get fooled often.

I completely agree. I've spotted them either. But you from my point of view a lot of them are originals. Why? Thoose greek mahairas are found in the Macedonia in verry large quantities,. They are all verry bad condition, however. Macedonia is full of greek graves and there are areas wich are not researched yet. I know that 'cos a friend lives there. Why anbody had put a gladius for sale? If thoose are reprdoctions, why they are not reproducing roman 5000$ worth Gladiuses instead of mahairas for 30$?

TVV · 22nd October 2005, 12:24 AM

Well, if have bought it first hand from the treasure-hunetrs, then there is no reason for concern. However, I still doubt the huge number of mahairas on eBay. There are thousands of Thracian burial sites in Bulgaria alone, and in Bulgarian museums the mahairas are not too many. Actually, they are probably less than the ones currently on eBay. And while one can doubt the mahairas (which when you think about it are extremely easy to fake), I certainly do not doubt the so-called Byzantine daggers, which are all late 19th, early 20th century village knives.
As far as Slavic weapons, this is a great topic. In Bulgaria, only one or two swords have been found and catalogued, and even those two are not certain to be Slavic, since they can also be Bulgarian, Byzantine, Avar or even Varyag. In a Czech book about early medieval Slavic artefacts I was once able to look at, there were a few swords, which were very similar in structure and hilt decoration to early Viking swords, which is not surprising as swordsmith centers in Western Europe were situated along the Rhein. Your piece does not seem at all like them, while with its ring hilt it has a very far resemblance to some central Asian pieces: maybe it was brought to the Western Balkans by the Huns. But this is an area I have very little knowledge in and so would stop speculating.
Regards,
Teodor

Miyamoto · 22nd October 2005, 12:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TVV

And while one can doubt the mahairas (which when you think about it are extremely easy to fake), I certainly do not doubt the so-called Byzantine daggers, which are all late 19th, early 20th century village knives.

Yes, I've spotted them to

Some of them even retains the original macedonian dried mood on them

Miyamoto · 28th October 2005, 04:23 PM

Rivkin,

Still waiting for your photos

I the meanwhile here is a foto from a book stating that the dagger is Celtic... I find it verry similar to the one in my possesion. Less decorated, but still.

TVV · 13th November 2005, 09:43 AM

Miyamoto,
While I personally fail to see any similarity between the item in your possession and the Celtic swords from the book photo you have posted, I believe I have discovered a picture you and the other forumites may deem interesting. This photo has been taken in the Sofia shop of a Bulgarian antiques salesman, at least a few years ago (he does not keep a shop anymore). For his protection I have blackened his face. Now, take a close look at the item right next to his head that I have encircled in red. Other than the price tag on the hilt, to my eye at least it appears very similar to, if not identical to the item that started this thread.
I know that this does not tell anything more about the origin of this item from what we already know, but here are just a few thoughts, which you can feel free to disagree with. You say you have purchased yours several years ago, which coincides with the approximate time the photo I have attached to this message was taken (I know that for certain). It appears there were two identical mysterious ancient artefacts at about the same time both in Bulgaria and Slovenia. I myself have two possible explanations for that phenomenon: either one and the same dagger made its way from Sofia to Slovenia, or approximately several years ago somebody opened a small shop and produced God only knows how many of these ancient daggers. From my experience with forgers in my own country, I think the latter is more likely.
I hope to be proven conclusively wrong, as then these daggers will contribute to the archaeology of weapons on the whole Balkan peninsula, but in light of the evidence so far and my own experience and observations, I am afraid we have another case of mass-produced "ancient" weapons we have to watch out for.
Regards,
Teodor

21st October 2005, 11:26 PM	#3
Miyamoto Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 44	Hi and thanks for your opinions! However, I'm avsolutely certain, that the dagger is at least 1000 years old. It looks antique manufacture and it evens smells like one. Also the color of the material used ( i think of a misture of bronze and iron not visibile on my poor photos) is verry antique looking. As I said I've bought it from a local "treasre hunter" (I live only 30 km away from Castorum at Frigidum) and beeing an aquitance of mine, I'll exclude that he lied to me. He even showed me the place where he exavated it. Your points are verry clear and understandable.I can understand your thoughts, I also thought that my friend was trying to fool me around a little. However you have to know that beeing verry unexperienced in the field, he had cleaned the dagger up extensively, immediately after he had found it. That would explain thoose file marks and no substantial pitting on the surface. Lower pitting is also atributed to the fact that in antique times the place where the dagger was found was wasteland. So if it were initially in burried the mood, not a lot of oxygen would be near the blade for a tousand of years. In the middle ages there were a mass population growth and they had dried up those terrain. In fact the dagger was found 1.5 meters deep underground in a strate of solid and compressed black terrain. I had a to say a big when I've took a look at that hole! Another thing. If you take a look at the third (side view) photo, you'd see a a small piece wich was not touched, look right in between the two gold pieces attached. It is hardly to see it cos the photo is a little blurry but I can assure you that it is a 1.5mm strait of green patina. I've aquired quite a lot of stuff, toghether with that dagger, all roman stuff (evena a wolf - Lupa Romana), but it was found more than 300 meter away from the site of that dagger, so I cannot atribuite for certain to the romans. There was a lot more more of that fibulas. Ariel: It would be fine to see a found someday an skeleton of an ancient Slavic Staresina, haveing his bottle of beer quietly Attached Images Last edited by Miyamoto; 21st October 2005 at 11:40 PM.

28th October 2005, 04:23 PM	#7
Miyamoto Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 44	Rivkin, Still waiting for your photos I the meanwhile here is a foto from a book stating that the dagger is Celtic... I find it verry similar to the one in my possesion. Less decorated, but still. Attached Images

13th November 2005, 09:43 AM	#8
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,664	Miyamoto, While I personally fail to see any similarity between the item in your possession and the Celtic swords from the book photo you have posted, I believe I have discovered a picture you and the other forumites may deem interesting. This photo has been taken in the Sofia shop of a Bulgarian antiques salesman, at least a few years ago (he does not keep a shop anymore). For his protection I have blackened his face. Now, take a close look at the item right next to his head that I have encircled in red. Other than the price tag on the hilt, to my eye at least it appears very similar to, if not identical to the item that started this thread. I know that this does not tell anything more about the origin of this item from what we already know, but here are just a few thoughts, which you can feel free to disagree with. You say you have purchased yours several years ago, which coincides with the approximate time the photo I have attached to this message was taken (I know that for certain). It appears there were two identical mysterious ancient artefacts at about the same time both in Bulgaria and Slovenia. I myself have two possible explanations for that phenomenon: either one and the same dagger made its way from Sofia to Slovenia, or approximately several years ago somebody opened a small shop and produced God only knows how many of these ancient daggers. From my experience with forgers in my own country, I think the latter is more likely. I hope to be proven conclusively wrong, as then these daggers will contribute to the archaeology of weapons on the whole Balkan peninsula, but in light of the evidence so far and my own experience and observations, I am afraid we have another case of mass-produced "ancient" weapons we have to watch out for. Regards, Teodor Attached Images

21st October 2005, 09:21 PM	#1
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Not my area at all, but ... It looks too good and intact for a 7th century iron sword. I would expect more rust, less even edges and no what I think are clearly visible and demarkated areas looking like grindstone marks. Overall, this looks like a oversize beer bottle opener

22nd October 2005, 12:24 AM	#5
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,664	Well, if have bought it first hand from the treasure-hunetrs, then there is no reason for concern. However, I still doubt the huge number of mahairas on eBay. There are thousands of Thracian burial sites in Bulgaria alone, and in Bulgarian museums the mahairas are not too many. Actually, they are probably less than the ones currently on eBay. And while one can doubt the mahairas (which when you think about it are extremely easy to fake), I certainly do not doubt the so-called Byzantine daggers, which are all late 19th, early 20th century village knives. As far as Slavic weapons, this is a great topic. In Bulgaria, only one or two swords have been found and catalogued, and even those two are not certain to be Slavic, since they can also be Bulgarian, Byzantine, Avar or even Varyag. In a Czech book about early medieval Slavic artefacts I was once able to look at, there were a few swords, which were very similar in structure and hilt decoration to early Viking swords, which is not surprising as swordsmith centers in Western Europe were situated along the Rhein. Your piece does not seem at all like them, while with its ring hilt it has a very far resemblance to some central Asian pieces: maybe it was brought to the Western Balkans by the Huns. But this is an area I have very little knowledge in and so would stop speculating. Regards, Teodor