Balinese/Lombok pedang

Maurice · 6th July 2013, 01:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spunjer

yowza!!! heck of pedang, bro! nice catch!!! would be interested at the translation on this pedang

Thanks Ron,

Still waiting if here's somebody who would like to translate it for us...

Maurice

CharlesS · 6th July 2013, 06:00 PM

Maurice,

Just for clarity because forums and emails carry no connotation and can be easily misinterpreted...like I did not understand that MM was joking about the tag!...I have no problem with anything that has been said about the sword, but if there are specific characteristics that make this a "for sure" Lombok made piece, of course I want to learn about them. I think I see what VVV is getting at about a more "squared" appearance, but I think we would need more complete pics and perhaps side-by-side examples.

David · 6th July 2013, 11:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CharlesS

Maurice,

Just for clarity because forums and emails carry no connotation and can be easily misinterpreted...like I did not understand that MM was joking about the tag!...I have no problem with anything that has been said about the sword, but if there are specific characteristics that make this a "for sure" Lombok made piece, of course I want to learn about them. I think I see what VVV is getting at about a more "squared" appearance, but I think we would need more complete pics and perhaps side-by-side examples.

^^^ Yeah, what he said. It is my hope that these forums are a learning experience and while these are not exactly the center of my collecting experience i have a great interest with other weapons of the area and would love to understand what the difference are between Sumatran and Lombak versions of these pedangs. Michael, if you are able to put up comparative photos of hilts from these distinct origins that would be awesome, thanks.

A. G. Maisey · 7th July 2013, 03:21 AM

In the 1950's these swords were usually given by collectors and British dealers as either "Java" or "Malaya".

I do not believe that either of these attributions were necessarily correct, but I think probably most people accepted this at the time.

In recent years I think most collectors attribute this sword type to Sumatera, I don't know exactly where in Sumatera, but I've read a Palembang attribution somewhere.

In this Forum I have seen attributions of Lombok, and other places in the Indonesian Archipelago.

My area of confusion is this:- what is the connection between Lombok and some unidentified location in Sumatera? Why Sumatera and then the jump across Jawa and Bali to Lombok? I might be missing something here, but I can find neither logical cause nor sociological connection for this very wide placement of the same style of sword.

If anybody ever reaches the position of being able to give a verifiable point of geographic origin for this type of sword, as distinct from an opinion, I think it might be possible that we find the style originating in Sumatera and travelling as items of trade to other areas within the Archipelago. This would be pretty recent trade I think, perhaps within the last 200 years. These are very attractive swords and would very probably have been appreciated by many people across the Archipelago.

By "geographic point of origin" my meaning is that the sword was made in an identifiable place and used or worn there.

In respect of the sword that generated this thread, I have often seen this type of calligraphic ornamentation, and mock calligraphic ornamentation, on various types of Indonesian weapons. Inlay of this type has most often been done very recently with the sole purpose of increasing the commercial value of an otherwise unremarkable item. The two places where I know this "enhancement" to be carried out now and in the past are Surabaya and Jogjakarta, but it is undoubtedly done in other places also.

VVV · 7th July 2013, 07:51 AM

I am also of the opinion that this kind of Pedang originated around Palembang. A case in point is that of those found in museums most often they have been collected in expeditions from that region. They are also found in other areas, most often Lombok but also in coastal South Borneo (among the Malays) and in Peninsular Malaysia. Local production and variations of a popular blade is a phenomenon also found for other weapons of this region.

To not the let this thread drift too far away I would prefer that Maurice first gets his translation, and we discuss the age and purpose of adding Qur'anic quotes on the blade.
Maybe after that we can add other reference pictures and discuss hilt and blade variations among the different regions.

Michael

A. G. Maisey · 7th July 2013, 08:58 AM

Michael, my remarks on calligraphic enhancement of blades is directed only at the particular type of calligraphic enhancement that we can see on this blade.

I believe most of us would be aware that it was not unusual for blades to bear other calligraphic enhancements that date from much earlier periods and which were placed on the blades for purposes other than the one I have mentioned.

However, I will make this further comment. Over the years I have often referred these blades to people I know in Solo for translation. One of these people is a very learned man who is able to read a number of different script variations. It is seldom that the inscriptions found on blades that I have personally handled are written accurately, in that sometimes the actual quotation will be wrong, at at other times the letters used to write the quotation will be formed in a way that makes a nonsense of what has been intended to be written. Sometimes the person to whom I have turned for assistance is able to guess what has been intended, at other times the opinion is that whoever put the inscription on the blade did not really know how to write and was putting on symbols that simply looked like letters to somebody who also could not read.

As to how a discussion in this Forum progresses, perhaps I am in error, but I have been under the impression that those of us who contribute to a discussion may contribute as we see fit, not wait until we are given some oblique cue that lets us know we are now permitted to say that which we wish to say.

I do most sincerely hope that Maurice will receive an accurate translation of the letters on his blade, but I do not believe that it is in anybody's best interests for us to sit on our keyboards and wait until this event occurs.

Regarding production of these swords in places other than original point of origin, yes, it is entirely possible that the style could be produced in places other than the place where it originated, but in the identification of other places where such swords might have been made I feel it might be quite difficult at this point in time to nail down a variation to a particular location. It is entirely possible that all apparent stylistic variation could in fact be quality variation, and the swords may all have been manufactured in the same area by different people.

I've spent a bit of time going through my references and quite frankly I cannot find very much at all on this particular type of sword. I would welcome the identification of reliable references by those who are better informed than I in respect of these particular swords.

VVV · 7th July 2013, 01:19 PM

Alan,

Your comments on talismanic writing etc. is indeed a well known and quite universal phenomenon both in the Muslim (Arabic) as well as the Catholic (Latin) periphery. Quite often the one actually making the inlay was not also a highly learned religious scholar.
My comment on in what order to answer all the different questions brought up in this thread is of course only how I prefer to respond to it myself (out of respect for Maurice's original question that started this thread) and only relevant for how I choose to participate in this discussion.

Michael

Maurice · 7th July 2013, 06:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

My area of confusion is this:- what is the connection between Lombok and some unidentified location in Sumatera? Why Sumatera and then the jump across Jawa and Bali to Lombok? I might be missing something here, but I can find neither logical cause nor sociological connection for this very wide placement of the same style of sword.

One connection could be the Dutch, who were present and travelling between the Indonesian archipellago isles in very early days and for long time, and also often there were native people with them on their travels to other islands. From here we allready would have a link, and therefore a connection of intercultural "pollination" and "copying" of for instance swords....

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

In respect of the sword that generated this thread, I have often seen this type of calligraphic ornamentation, and mock calligraphic ornamentation, on various types of Indonesian weapons. Inlay of this type has most often been done very recently with the sole purpose of increasing the commercial value of an otherwise unremarkable item. The two places where I know this "enhancement" to be carried out now and in the past are Surabaya and Jogjakarta, but it is undoubtedly done in other places also.

Therefore we need an explanation of the text by somebody.
From there we could say more about it. If somebody would use a "mock calligraphic ornamentation", I don't think it would be done so intensive and so fine as on this pedang.
If you have seen often "this type of calligraphic ornamentations" as you mentions, I would like you to post some images here for comparison if possible.
I also have images from pedangs (of other collections, and therefore not propriate to post here), of which I'm sure it's definately not as old and finely done as mine. Also it's done much more crudely, and not so intensively.
In comparison with the one in this thread, I never have seen a pedang ornamented as labour-intensive and decoratively done as this one. So I doubt it's only supposed to be a "mock calligraphy".
But this is only from my common sense and I would love to know more and it might be when we have a translation...

Thanks for your input!

Maurice

Maurice · 7th July 2013, 06:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CharlesS

Maurice,

Just for clarity because forums and emails carry no connotation and can be easily misinterpreted...like I did not understand that MM was joking about the tag!...I have no problem with anything that has been said about the sword, but if there are specific characteristics that make this a "for sure" Lombok made piece, of course I want to learn about them. I think I see what VVV is getting at about a more "squared" appearance, but I think we would need more complete pics and perhaps side-by-side examples.

Charles, ofcourse Michael was joking about that, as you could see in the wink at the end of it ( ;-) ).
Here you see the photo which Michael was referring to, and indeed mentioned Lombok in it, though it was a recent tag for sure...

I also would like to know more about the differences of the handles, but this is the only one I have, so I have no comparison to post, only what everyone could see in the former threads..

6th July 2013, 06:00 PM	#2
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,854	Maurice, Just for clarity because forums and emails carry no connotation and can be easily misinterpreted...like I did not understand that MM was joking about the tag!...I have no problem with anything that has been said about the sword, but if there are specific characteristics that make this a "for sure" Lombok made piece, of course I want to learn about them. I think I see what VVV is getting at about a more "squared" appearance, but I think we would need more complete pics and perhaps side-by-side examples.

7th July 2013, 03:21 AM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	In the 1950's these swords were usually given by collectors and British dealers as either "Java" or "Malaya". I do not believe that either of these attributions were necessarily correct, but I think probably most people accepted this at the time. In recent years I think most collectors attribute this sword type to Sumatera, I don't know exactly where in Sumatera, but I've read a Palembang attribution somewhere. In this Forum I have seen attributions of Lombok, and other places in the Indonesian Archipelago. My area of confusion is this:- what is the connection between Lombok and some unidentified location in Sumatera? Why Sumatera and then the jump across Jawa and Bali to Lombok? I might be missing something here, but I can find neither logical cause nor sociological connection for this very wide placement of the same style of sword. If anybody ever reaches the position of being able to give a verifiable point of geographic origin for this type of sword, as distinct from an opinion, I think it might be possible that we find the style originating in Sumatera and travelling as items of trade to other areas within the Archipelago. This would be pretty recent trade I think, perhaps within the last 200 years. These are very attractive swords and would very probably have been appreciated by many people across the Archipelago. By "geographic point of origin" my meaning is that the sword was made in an identifiable place and used or worn there. In respect of the sword that generated this thread, I have often seen this type of calligraphic ornamentation, and mock calligraphic ornamentation, on various types of Indonesian weapons. Inlay of this type has most often been done very recently with the sole purpose of increasing the commercial value of an otherwise unremarkable item. The two places where I know this "enhancement" to be carried out now and in the past are Surabaya and Jogjakarta, but it is undoubtedly done in other places also.

7th July 2013, 07:51 AM	#5
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	I am also of the opinion that this kind of Pedang originated around Palembang. A case in point is that of those found in museums most often they have been collected in expeditions from that region. They are also found in other areas, most often Lombok but also in coastal South Borneo (among the Malays) and in Peninsular Malaysia. Local production and variations of a popular blade is a phenomenon also found for other weapons of this region. To not the let this thread drift too far away I would prefer that Maurice first gets his translation, and we discuss the age and purpose of adding Qur'anic quotes on the blade. Maybe after that we can add other reference pictures and discuss hilt and blade variations among the different regions. Michael

7th July 2013, 08:58 AM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	Michael, my remarks on calligraphic enhancement of blades is directed only at the particular type of calligraphic enhancement that we can see on this blade. I believe most of us would be aware that it was not unusual for blades to bear other calligraphic enhancements that date from much earlier periods and which were placed on the blades for purposes other than the one I have mentioned. However, I will make this further comment. Over the years I have often referred these blades to people I know in Solo for translation. One of these people is a very learned man who is able to read a number of different script variations. It is seldom that the inscriptions found on blades that I have personally handled are written accurately, in that sometimes the actual quotation will be wrong, at at other times the letters used to write the quotation will be formed in a way that makes a nonsense of what has been intended to be written. Sometimes the person to whom I have turned for assistance is able to guess what has been intended, at other times the opinion is that whoever put the inscription on the blade did not really know how to write and was putting on symbols that simply looked like letters to somebody who also could not read. As to how a discussion in this Forum progresses, perhaps I am in error, but I have been under the impression that those of us who contribute to a discussion may contribute as we see fit, not wait until we are given some oblique cue that lets us know we are now permitted to say that which we wish to say. I do most sincerely hope that Maurice will receive an accurate translation of the letters on his blade, but I do not believe that it is in anybody's best interests for us to sit on our keyboards and wait until this event occurs. Regarding production of these swords in places other than original point of origin, yes, it is entirely possible that the style could be produced in places other than the place where it originated, but in the identification of other places where such swords might have been made I feel it might be quite difficult at this point in time to nail down a variation to a particular location. It is entirely possible that all apparent stylistic variation could in fact be quality variation, and the swords may all have been manufactured in the same area by different people. I've spent a bit of time going through my references and quite frankly I cannot find very much at all on this particular type of sword. I would welcome the identification of reliable references by those who are better informed than I in respect of these particular swords.

7th July 2013, 01:19 PM	#7
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Alan, Your comments on talismanic writing etc. is indeed a well known and quite universal phenomenon both in the Muslim (Arabic) as well as the Catholic (Latin) periphery. Quite often the one actually making the inlay was not also a highly learned religious scholar. My comment on in what order to answer all the different questions brought up in this thread is of course only how I prefer to respond to it myself (out of respect for Maurice's original question that started this thread) and only relevant for how I choose to participate in this discussion. Michael