Balinese/Lombok pedang

[Maurice]

Originally Posted by CharlesS

I am not necessarily saying it's Sumatran, I just didn't understand why it had to be Lombok, and I must have missed anything about a tag.

Good observations.

Michael's remark about the tag was meant like a little joke.
There was a tag saying Lombok on it, but it was a recent one so I detached it.

Maurice

[Spunjer]

yowza!!! heck of pedang, bro! nice catch!!! would be interested at the translation on this pedang

[Maurice]

Originally Posted by Spunjer

yowza!!! heck of pedang, bro! nice catch!!! would be interested at the translation on this pedang

Thanks Ron,

Still waiting if here's somebody who would like to translate it for us...

Maurice

[CharlesS]

Maurice,

Just for clarity because forums and emails carry no connotation and can be easily misinterpreted...like I did not understand that MM was joking about the tag!...I have no problem with anything that has been said about the sword, but if there are specific characteristics that make this a "for sure" Lombok made piece, of course I want to learn about them. I think I see what VVV is getting at about a more "squared" appearance, but I think we would need more complete pics and perhaps side-by-side examples.

[David]

Originally Posted by CharlesS

Maurice,

Just for clarity because forums and emails carry no connotation and can be easily misinterpreted...like I did not understand that MM was joking about the tag!...I have no problem with anything that has been said about the sword, but if there are specific characteristics that make this a "for sure" Lombok made piece, of course I want to learn about them. I think I see what VVV is getting at about a more "squared" appearance, but I think we would need more complete pics and perhaps side-by-side examples.

^^^ Yeah, what he said. It is my hope that these forums are a learning experience and while these are not exactly the center of my collecting experience i have a great interest with other weapons of the area and would love to understand what the difference are between Sumatran and Lombak versions of these pedangs. Michael, if you are able to put up comparative photos of hilts from these distinct origins that would be awesome, thanks.

[A. G. Maisey]

In the 1950's these swords were usually given by collectors and British dealers as either "Java" or "Malaya".

I do not believe that either of these attributions were necessarily correct, but I think probably most people accepted this at the time.

In recent years I think most collectors attribute this sword type to Sumatera, I don't know exactly where in Sumatera, but I've read a Palembang attribution somewhere.

In this Forum I have seen attributions of Lombok, and other places in the Indonesian Archipelago.

My area of confusion is this:- what is the connection between Lombok and some unidentified location in Sumatera? Why Sumatera and then the jump across Jawa and Bali to Lombok? I might be missing something here, but I can find neither logical cause nor sociological connection for this very wide placement of the same style of sword.

If anybody ever reaches the position of being able to give a verifiable point of geographic origin for this type of sword, as distinct from an opinion, I think it might be possible that we find the style originating in Sumatera and travelling as items of trade to other areas within the Archipelago. This would be pretty recent trade I think, perhaps within the last 200 years. These are very attractive swords and would very probably have been appreciated by many people across the Archipelago.

By "geographic point of origin" my meaning is that the sword was made in an identifiable place and used or worn there.

In respect of the sword that generated this thread, I have often seen this type of calligraphic ornamentation, and mock calligraphic ornamentation, on various types of Indonesian weapons. Inlay of this type has most often been done very recently with the sole purpose of increasing the commercial value of an otherwise unremarkable item. The two places where I know this "enhancement" to be carried out now and in the past are Surabaya and Jogjakarta, but it is undoubtedly done in other places also.

[VVV]

I am also of the opinion that this kind of Pedang originated around Palembang. A case in point is that of those found in museums most often they have been collected in expeditions from that region. They are also found in other areas, most often Lombok but also in coastal South Borneo (among the Malays) and in Peninsular Malaysia. Local production and variations of a popular blade is a phenomenon also found for other weapons of this region.

To not the let this thread drift too far away I would prefer that Maurice first gets his translation, and we discuss the age and purpose of adding Qur'anic quotes on the blade.
Maybe after that we can add other reference pictures and discuss hilt and blade variations among the different regions.

Michael

[Maurice]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

My area of confusion is this:- what is the connection between Lombok and some unidentified location in Sumatera? Why Sumatera and then the jump across Jawa and Bali to Lombok? I might be missing something here, but I can find neither logical cause nor sociological connection for this very wide placement of the same style of sword.

One connection could be the Dutch, who were present and travelling between the Indonesian archipellago isles in very early days and for long time, and also often there were native people with them on their travels to other islands. From here we allready would have a link, and therefore a connection of intercultural "pollination" and "copying" of for instance swords....

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

In respect of the sword that generated this thread, I have often seen this type of calligraphic ornamentation, and mock calligraphic ornamentation, on various types of Indonesian weapons. Inlay of this type has most often been done very recently with the sole purpose of increasing the commercial value of an otherwise unremarkable item. The two places where I know this "enhancement" to be carried out now and in the past are Surabaya and Jogjakarta, but it is undoubtedly done in other places also.

Therefore we need an explanation of the text by somebody.
From there we could say more about it. If somebody would use a "mock calligraphic ornamentation", I don't think it would be done so intensive and so fine as on this pedang.
If you have seen often "this type of calligraphic ornamentations" as you mentions, I would like you to post some images here for comparison if possible.
I also have images from pedangs (of other collections, and therefore not propriate to post here), of which I'm sure it's definately not as old and finely done as mine. Also it's done much more crudely, and not so intensively.
In comparison with the one in this thread, I never have seen a pedang ornamented as labour-intensive and decoratively done as this one. So I doubt it's only supposed to be a "mock calligraphy".
But this is only from my common sense and I would love to know more and it might be when we have a translation...

Thanks for your input!

Maurice

[Maurice]

Originally Posted by CharlesS

Maurice,

Just for clarity because forums and emails carry no connotation and can be easily misinterpreted...like I did not understand that MM was joking about the tag!...I have no problem with anything that has been said about the sword, but if there are specific characteristics that make this a "for sure" Lombok made piece, of course I want to learn about them. I think I see what VVV is getting at about a more "squared" appearance, but I think we would need more complete pics and perhaps side-by-side examples.

Charles, ofcourse Michael was joking about that, as you could see in the wink at the end of it ( ;-) ).
Here you see the photo which Michael was referring to, and indeed mentioned Lombok in it, though it was a recent tag for sure...

I also would like to know more about the differences of the handles, but this is the only one I have, so I have no comparison to post, only what everyone could see in the former threads..