Keris Sundang Melayu with twist core

Gustav · 26th June 2013, 09:24 PM

For me a problem to accept Madura smiths as initial propagators of twistcore on Philippine blades is, as I wrote, the lack of other more elaborate patterns. We see only twistcore with exeption of some very rare Adeg patterns.

I also doubt, there are Madura blades at all, which have rows of more then 3 twistcore stripes, seen on Kampilan and sometimes on Kris. Yet the normal keris blades are much narrower, of course.

Here is a thread about a twistcore Yataghan in SEA dress:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=7622

Here is a thread about twistcore Mandau:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...4243&highlight

Also pictures of a Kampilan and two Yataghans, one of them (the upper one) dated 1592.

Regarding Sendai Keris, I have the same picture, the best available at the moment. The keris is out of stain, has a polished and in some areas slightly rusted surface, so it is difficult to be judged and no categorical statements can be made. Yet I would say, there is at least a possibility of a pattern welded Pamor Miring, even if the Pamor material isn't of high contrast.

A. G. Maisey · 27th June 2013, 01:47 AM

Yes, agreed, there is always the possibility of a miring technique having been used to weld the Sendai Keris.

There is always the possibility of anything.

Javanese and Madurese blades do exist that display multiple bars of twisted material welded together. I have owned a number of these, mostly pedangs.

There is a possibility that the technology used to weld twist patterns in the Philippines did come from the Middle East --- as I have said:- anything is possible.

However, I do feel that we would need a a little more evidence of trade links between the areas where these Philippine blades were produced and the Middle East. I have never looked specifically at this local area, the Philippines, so I do not know what the trade links were.

If we wish to assign origin of technology to somewhere other than the obvious source then what we need is evidence of trade links. Not just itinerant preachers, but solid, continuing trade. If we can show that existed then there is a good chance that the technology came into the Philippines from the Middle East.

We know that there there were trade links between Jawa and virtually all of Maritime SE Asia. Why do we need to look further afield? The most obvious source of the technology is Jawa, but there is always the possibility that the technology could have come from somewhere else.

Spunjer · 27th June 2013, 05:09 PM

very informative and interesting thread so far!
the triangular trade between india, china and southeast asia in the mid 1700's in turn developed Sulu into a major trading center and transshipment for the zone (Warren, the sulu zone, 1768-1898).

A. G. Maisey · 28th June 2013, 01:36 AM

This post is a comment on the possible source of technique and technology necessary for the production of pattern welded blades in the region under the control of the Sulu Sultanate.

As already noted, I have very little interest in this geographic area or this subject, however I have spent half an hour or so looking at web sources with the assistance of Dr. Google. In fact, there seems to be quite a lot of information available online that deals with the history of this area and its trade links.

Cursory review of the available information indicates that until the arrival of the Spanish and conflict with them there was not inconsiderable contact with Islam through both Middle Eastern and Chinese Muslim merchants and preachers. Thus it is reasonable to assume that there was a direct transfer of technology in metal working from Chinese and Middle Eastern societies to craftsmen within the Sulu Sultanate, just as there was in Jawa.

There was diplomatic and mercantile contact with China on a reasonably large and consistent scale, and also contact with Sufi traders from the early 15th century.

Against this background it is reasonable to assume a similar transfer of skills to that which took place in Jawa.

With the arrival of the Spanish it appears that trade links between the Middle East & China (to a lesser extent) and the Sulu Sultanate declined, but the trade and cultural exchange between the various entities of regional Maritime SE Asia continued.

It seems that two distinct influences contributed to metal working techniques and technology in the Sulu Sultanate, first direct contact with peoples from both China and the Middle East, and a lengthy and continuing contact with peoples from within Maritime SE Asia.

What I have written above is the product of no more than 30 minutes web browsing. It may be correct, substantially correct, or incorrect. But it does indicate that there is a very adequate quantity of information available for research by anybody with an interest in this subject --- and that's just the on-line stuff. Get involved with real, live, genuine printed matter and there's no telling what you might discover.

Is anybody even remotely interested in looking for factual historical information to supplement their interest in the weaponry of this area?

Spunjer · 28th June 2013, 05:13 PM

Quote:

Is anybody even remotely interested in looking for factual historical information to supplement their interest in the weaponry of this area?

in regards to the source of technology, evidently not. but as far as the trading that happened prehispanic and eventually, during the arrival of the spaniards, this has been discussed early on.
now,for those of us that are into this particular area or subject and would like some refresher, we can type in "scott", "warren", "laarhoven", "majul", "saleeby", etc. in the search query on this forum, for starters.

David · 28th June 2013, 05:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spunjer

...for those of us that are into this particular area or subject and would like some refresher, we can type in "scott", "warren", "laarhoven", "majul", "saleeby", etc. in the search query on this forum, for starters.

Complete names will certainly narrow down searches and make it a bit easier on the researcher.

Najeeb M. Saleeby, Cesar Adib Majul, James F. Warren, Ruurdje Laarhoven, William Henry Scott

A. G. Maisey · 29th June 2013, 12:34 AM

Thanks Spunjer, these authors are perhaps a good place to start for anybody who wishes to do the necessary work.
Over my morning coffee I've had a quick look at these people, and although their published works do not seem to indicate any specificity in respect of the matters raised here, they do indicate that a selective search and perusal of those works could assist anybody with any interest and commitment.
I did not search the Forum, but rather went to net searches. Here are my notes made from those searches:-

Najeeb M. Saleeby, Cesar Adib Majul, James F. Warren, Ruurdje Laarhoven, William Henry Scott

Najeeb M. Saleeby --- writings in history, law, religion

James F. Warren, --- archival historian --- The Sulu Zone: The Dynamics of External Trade, Slavery and Ethnicity in the Transformation of a Southeast Asian Maritime State, 1768-1898

Cesar Adib Majul --- modern history--- Muslims in the Philippines, University of the Philippines Press (1973, 1999) ISBN 971-542-188-1

Ruurdje Laarhoven --- cultural anthropology---professor at Hawaii Pacific University, several publications

William Henry Scott--- extensive writings --- highly regarded

I know I must sometimes sound like a broken record, and I apologise for this, but I do believe that those of us who have an interest in the material culture of any culture or society can only benefit by gaining a better understanding of that culture or society.

The weapons of any people are the physical objects produced by those people which display the highest degree of technology available to them. This is as true of Stone Age Man as it is of our present time:- flint knives to modern weapons that are so secret that we are not even allowed to know they exist. State of the art technology for the time.

If you have an interest in the weaponry of any people you are doing yourself a very great service by learning more of the way in which that weaponry came into being and of the society and culture which produced it.

26th June 2013, 09:24 PM	#1
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,249	For me a problem to accept Madura smiths as initial propagators of twistcore on Philippine blades is, as I wrote, the lack of other more elaborate patterns. We see only twistcore with exeption of some very rare Adeg patterns. I also doubt, there are Madura blades at all, which have rows of more then 3 twistcore stripes, seen on Kampilan and sometimes on Kris. Yet the normal keris blades are much narrower, of course. Here is a thread about a twistcore Yataghan in SEA dress: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=7622 Here is a thread about twistcore Mandau: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...4243&highlight Also pictures of a Kampilan and two Yataghans, one of them (the upper one) dated 1592. Regarding Sendai Keris, I have the same picture, the best available at the moment. The keris is out of stain, has a polished and in some areas slightly rusted surface, so it is difficult to be judged and no categorical statements can be made. Yet I would say, there is at least a possibility of a pattern welded Pamor Miring, even if the Pamor material isn't of high contrast. Attached Images Last edited by Gustav; 26th June 2013 at 10:12 PM.

27th June 2013, 01:47 AM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,892	Yes, agreed, there is always the possibility of a miring technique having been used to weld the Sendai Keris. There is always the possibility of anything. Javanese and Madurese blades do exist that display multiple bars of twisted material welded together. I have owned a number of these, mostly pedangs. There is a possibility that the technology used to weld twist patterns in the Philippines did come from the Middle East --- as I have said:- anything is possible. However, I do feel that we would need a a little more evidence of trade links between the areas where these Philippine blades were produced and the Middle East. I have never looked specifically at this local area, the Philippines, so I do not know what the trade links were. If we wish to assign origin of technology to somewhere other than the obvious source then what we need is evidence of trade links. Not just itinerant preachers, but solid, continuing trade. If we can show that existed then there is a good chance that the technology came into the Philippines from the Middle East. We know that there there were trade links between Jawa and virtually all of Maritime SE Asia. Why do we need to look further afield? The most obvious source of the technology is Jawa, but there is always the possibility that the technology could have come from somewhere else.

27th June 2013, 05:09 PM	#3
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	very informative and interesting thread so far! the triangular trade between india, china and southeast asia in the mid 1700's in turn developed Sulu into a major trading center and transshipment for the zone (Warren, the sulu zone, 1768-1898).

28th June 2013, 01:36 AM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,892	This post is a comment on the possible source of technique and technology necessary for the production of pattern welded blades in the region under the control of the Sulu Sultanate. As already noted, I have very little interest in this geographic area or this subject, however I have spent half an hour or so looking at web sources with the assistance of Dr. Google. In fact, there seems to be quite a lot of information available online that deals with the history of this area and its trade links. Cursory review of the available information indicates that until the arrival of the Spanish and conflict with them there was not inconsiderable contact with Islam through both Middle Eastern and Chinese Muslim merchants and preachers. Thus it is reasonable to assume that there was a direct transfer of technology in metal working from Chinese and Middle Eastern societies to craftsmen within the Sulu Sultanate, just as there was in Jawa. There was diplomatic and mercantile contact with China on a reasonably large and consistent scale, and also contact with Sufi traders from the early 15th century. Against this background it is reasonable to assume a similar transfer of skills to that which took place in Jawa. With the arrival of the Spanish it appears that trade links between the Middle East & China (to a lesser extent) and the Sulu Sultanate declined, but the trade and cultural exchange between the various entities of regional Maritime SE Asia continued. It seems that two distinct influences contributed to metal working techniques and technology in the Sulu Sultanate, first direct contact with peoples from both China and the Middle East, and a lengthy and continuing contact with peoples from within Maritime SE Asia. What I have written above is the product of no more than 30 minutes web browsing. It may be correct, substantially correct, or incorrect. But it does indicate that there is a very adequate quantity of information available for research by anybody with an interest in this subject --- and that's just the on-line stuff. Get involved with real, live, genuine printed matter and there's no telling what you might discover. Is anybody even remotely interested in looking for factual historical information to supplement their interest in the weaponry of this area?

29th June 2013, 12:34 AM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,892	Thanks Spunjer, these authors are perhaps a good place to start for anybody who wishes to do the necessary work. Over my morning coffee I've had a quick look at these people, and although their published works do not seem to indicate any specificity in respect of the matters raised here, they do indicate that a selective search and perusal of those works could assist anybody with any interest and commitment. I did not search the Forum, but rather went to net searches. Here are my notes made from those searches:- Najeeb M. Saleeby, Cesar Adib Majul, James F. Warren, Ruurdje Laarhoven, William Henry Scott Najeeb M. Saleeby --- writings in history, law, religion James F. Warren, --- archival historian --- The Sulu Zone: The Dynamics of External Trade, Slavery and Ethnicity in the Transformation of a Southeast Asian Maritime State, 1768-1898 Cesar Adib Majul --- modern history--- Muslims in the Philippines, University of the Philippines Press (1973, 1999) ISBN 971-542-188-1 Ruurdje Laarhoven --- cultural anthropology---professor at Hawaii Pacific University, several publications William Henry Scott--- extensive writings --- highly regarded I know I must sometimes sound like a broken record, and I apologise for this, but I do believe that those of us who have an interest in the material culture of any culture or society can only benefit by gaining a better understanding of that culture or society. The weapons of any people are the physical objects produced by those people which display the highest degree of technology available to them. This is as true of Stone Age Man as it is of our present time:- flint knives to modern weapons that are so secret that we are not even allowed to know they exist. State of the art technology for the time. If you have an interest in the weaponry of any people you are doing yourself a very great service by learning more of the way in which that weaponry came into being and of the society and culture which produced it.