On the Origins of the so-called Berber Sabres

M ELEY · 13th June 2013, 05:15 AM

Excellent points, Teodor.

I, myself, wasn't trying to imply that the Berber sabers were of Brazilian or Spanish origin. It was just a question of who influenced whom. I agree that the blades don't define the piece, as all areas discussed had trade blades present. I have no doubt the scabbard on the Berbers come from that region, or at least from the African northern provinces stretching to Morocco.

The question for me remains with the hilt. We see Brazilian and Cuban swords with these distinct and fascinating shapes that are so similar to the ninchas and saifs. All the pieces discussed frequently have the same types of inlay concentric circles and wavy lines. The time periods when we start seeing Berber sabers, Brazilian cutlass and the Cuban examples with the odd hilts all seem to be post 1800. I'm just still trying to make a connection, but perhaps am seeing more than is really there?

The Brazilian cutlass hilt resemble a throw-back to the old Houndslow swords of the 17th century and look nothing like the hilts on other espada ancha. The mystery continues...

TVV · 6th June 2014, 03:35 PM

I was fortunate enough to visit Madrid this week and just yesterday took the train to Toledo, where the Spanish National Military History Museum is now located. Among all the exhibits there is a single sword of the type discussed in this thread, identified as originating from the Dominican Republic from the mid 19th century.

This is just the latest in a series of evidence, all pointing to the Dominican Republic. Museums are known to make mistakes, but my impression from the Museo del Ejercito was that the items there were for the most part very accurately researched and identified. There were displays to the wars fought in Morocco both in Toledo and in the Museo Naval in Madrid, and neither contained these machetes, but contained the typical Maghrebi saifs and muskets instead, along with koumayas and flyssas.

Personally, I am now of the opinion that these short sabres or machetes are entirely Dominican in origin, and any occurence in a North African context may have been purely incidental.

Jim McDougall · 7th June 2014, 02:20 AM

Excellent Teodor, thank you!!!!
It is so great when these older threads are brought up with new data, and finally we can put this one to rest. I agree the Museo del Ejercito has as far as I have known always had well placed research, and it seems that the Caribbean attribution to these has also been consistant.

Sounds like a fantastic trip, and thank you again for sharing this.

All the best,
Jim

Jim McDougall · 7th June 2014, 02:20 AM

Excellent Teodor, thank you!!!!
It is so great when these older threads are brought up with new data, and finally we can put this one to rest. I agree the Museo del Ejercito has as far as I have known always had well placed research, and it seems that the Caribbean attribution to these has also been consistant.

Sounds like a fantastic trip, and thank you again for sharing this.

All the best,
Jim

archer · 7th June 2014, 06:21 AM

I just noticed a mention on the third page of Faganarms,Inc. Spring 2014 catalog a Berber Back sword listed with the mention that the Kabyle Berbers fought for the French in Mexico in the 1850s. Perhaps, this is partially how and why they were connected. Steve

Masich · 9th April 2016, 06:35 PM

Here are two more examples of probable Spanish Colonial swords with notched horn grips and "shell" guards. One appears to be a horseman's saber with a curved, full length blade bearing the familiar "No me saques sin razon" inscription and panoply with floral flourish. The other has a heavier, shorter more cutlass-like blade.
The shell guards should, it seems to me, really be classified as a Peacock motif. The uniqueness of this design, when combined with the distinctive notched grip, may well be a clue to the origin of these swords.
Pierce Chamberlain told me the "No me saques..." sword pictured here is likely from Mexico but agreed that it exhibits Caribbean influence--but that, of course, covers a pretty broad area.The Brazilian connection (attributed to the peacock motif guard on the previously-posted sword seen on the gray background) is intriguing. Has anyone discovered more attributed specimens of this style? Are there any additional theories on the provenance of these enigmatic pieces?

Andy Masich

ariel · 10th April 2016, 03:49 AM

Never thought to see this thread resurrected :-)))

Jut as an afterthought to my remark from 2013(!!!), see post #53: blades do travel.

Here is my nimcha ( or saif for the purists), typical North African work, but the blade is marked "Nueva Granada 1845". Nueva Granada is, AFAIK, Colombia/Panama these days:-)

Was the blade made there and transported to Spanish Sahara?

carlos · 2nd August 2016, 02:54 PM

I only want to help in this post with 3 pictures from spanish army museum in Toledo.
Thanks
Carlos

Jim McDougall · 10th April 2016, 05:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Masich

Here are two more examples of probable Spanish Colonial swords with notched horn grips and "shell" guards. One appears to be a horseman's saber with a curved, full length blade bearing the familiar "No me saques sin razon" inscription and panoply with floral flourish. The other has a heavier, shorter more cutlass-like blade.
The shell guards should, it seems to me, really be classified as a Peacock motif. The uniqueness of this design, when combined with the distinctive notched grip, may well be a clue to the origin of these swords.
Pierce Chamberlain told me the "No me saques..." sword pictured here is likely from Mexico but agreed that it exhibits Caribbean influence--but that, of course, covers a pretty broad area.The Brazilian connection (attributed to the peacock motif guard on the previously-posted sword seen on the gray background) is intriguing. Has anyone discovered more attributed specimens of this style? Are there any additional theories on the provenance of these enigmatic pieces?

Andy Masich

Andy, when did you talk with Pierce??

Masich · 10th April 2016, 01:59 PM

I last spoke to Pierce about a month ago. He and Sid Brinckerhoff hired me as a curator at the Arizona Historical Society more than 30 years ago. Though I've moved far from the Southwest, I still love Spanish colonial and Mexican history.
I am eager to learn more about these distinctive "Brazilian" swords, though I agree with you that this attribution may be too restrictive for a form that may be more appropriately called Caribbean.
Any further thoughts on the Peacock connection?

Andy Masich

6th June 2014, 03:35 PM	#2
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,664	I was fortunate enough to visit Madrid this week and just yesterday took the train to Toledo, where the Spanish National Military History Museum is now located. Among all the exhibits there is a single sword of the type discussed in this thread, identified as originating from the Dominican Republic from the mid 19th century. This is just the latest in a series of evidence, all pointing to the Dominican Republic. Museums are known to make mistakes, but my impression from the Museo del Ejercito was that the items there were for the most part very accurately researched and identified. There were displays to the wars fought in Morocco both in Toledo and in the Museo Naval in Madrid, and neither contained these machetes, but contained the typical Maghrebi saifs and muskets instead, along with koumayas and flyssas. Personally, I am now of the opinion that these short sabres or machetes are entirely Dominican in origin, and any occurence in a North African context may have been purely incidental. Attached Images

9th April 2016, 06:35 PM	#6
Masich Member Join Date: Apr 2016 Posts: 7	Espadas Anchas de Brazil y Berber Here are two more examples of probable Spanish Colonial swords with notched horn grips and "shell" guards. One appears to be a horseman's saber with a curved, full length blade bearing the familiar "No me saques sin razon" inscription and panoply with floral flourish. The other has a heavier, shorter more cutlass-like blade. The shell guards should, it seems to me, really be classified as a Peacock motif. The uniqueness of this design, when combined with the distinctive notched grip, may well be a clue to the origin of these swords. Pierce Chamberlain told me the "No me saques..." sword pictured here is likely from Mexico but agreed that it exhibits Caribbean influence--but that, of course, covers a pretty broad area.The Brazilian connection (attributed to the peacock motif guard on the previously-posted sword seen on the gray background) is intriguing. Has anyone discovered more attributed specimens of this style? Are there any additional theories on the provenance of these enigmatic pieces? Andy Masich Attached Images

10th April 2016, 03:49 AM	#7
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Never thought to see this thread resurrected :-))) Jut as an afterthought to my remark from 2013(!!!), see post #53: blades do travel. Here is my nimcha ( or saif for the purists), typical North African work, but the blade is marked "Nueva Granada 1845". Nueva Granada is, AFAIK, Colombia/Panama these days:-) Was the blade made there and transported to Spanish Sahara? Attached Images

2nd August 2016, 02:54 PM	#8
carlos Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 751	I only want to help in this post with 3 pictures from spanish army museum in Toledo. Thanks Carlos Attached Images

10th April 2016, 01:59 PM	#10
Masich Member Join Date: Apr 2016 Posts: 7	Pierce Chamberlain I last spoke to Pierce about a month ago. He and Sid Brinckerhoff hired me as a curator at the Arizona Historical Society more than 30 years ago. Though I've moved far from the Southwest, I still love Spanish colonial and Mexican history. I am eager to learn more about these distinctive "Brazilian" swords, though I agree with you that this attribution may be too restrictive for a form that may be more appropriately called Caribbean. Any further thoughts on the Peacock connection? Andy Masich Attached Images

13th June 2013, 05:15 AM	#1
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,156	Excellent points, Teodor. I, myself, wasn't trying to imply that the Berber sabers were of Brazilian or Spanish origin. It was just a question of who influenced whom. I agree that the blades don't define the piece, as all areas discussed had trade blades present. I have no doubt the scabbard on the Berbers come from that region, or at least from the African northern provinces stretching to Morocco. The question for me remains with the hilt. We see Brazilian and Cuban swords with these distinct and fascinating shapes that are so similar to the ninchas and saifs. All the pieces discussed frequently have the same types of inlay concentric circles and wavy lines. The time periods when we start seeing Berber sabers, Brazilian cutlass and the Cuban examples with the odd hilts all seem to be post 1800. I'm just still trying to make a connection, but perhaps am seeing more than is really there? The Brazilian cutlass hilt resemble a throw-back to the old Houndslow swords of the 17th century and look nothing like the hilts on other espada ancha. The mystery continues...

7th June 2014, 02:20 AM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Excellent Teodor, thank you!!!! It is so great when these older threads are brought up with new data, and finally we can put this one to rest. I agree the Museo del Ejercito has as far as I have known always had well placed research, and it seems that the Caribbean attribution to these has also been consistant. Sounds like a fantastic trip, and thank you again for sharing this. All the best, Jim

7th June 2014, 06:21 AM	#5
archer Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 373	Berber Mexican connection? I just noticed a mention on the third page of Faganarms,Inc. Spring 2014 catalog a Berber Back sword listed with the mention that the Kabyle Berbers fought for the French in Mexico in the 1850s. Perhaps, this is partially how and why they were connected. Steve