Berber Cavalry Saber ??

[archer]

This is a link about circle decorations:http://vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=16661 look at the knives sheath. It appears to have only one wooden insert, as does my swords scabbard. The circles are kind of understandable as a simple design to make.
The second link provided by Richard G shows an odd tapered tang! http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=14832 This thread as Kanjar 1 had stated earlier pointed to Algeria and Northern Africa as a possible source of the knives. What do you think?
Oh, one more thing the odd steel shown on this knife reminds me some better quality Koummya's can have a similar odd looking steel. Regards, Steve

[archer]

This Koummya was purchased from France (E Bay) seller, said it was from North Central Morocco bordering Algeria. Note dagger with the same oddly rough textured steel.

[TVV]

The circle and dot motif is way too common to base anything on it, I am afraid: I can easily find Balkan and Central Asian examples. The sheath is much more intriguing, and its more complex decoration would probably serve us better in identifying the culture, where the sword was made.
Regards,
Teodor

[TVV]

Perhaps as to not distract from archer's nice sword, we should continue the discussion in this old thread:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...6&page=2&pp=30

Please note on page 2 another such sword with yet another reference to the Dominican Republic.

Regards,
Teodor

[archer]

Hi Teodor, I agree the dots appear in a lot of decorations. My and Others points are that The knife in question if Algerian has too many similarities to dismiss. The tapered tang seen apparently on most if not all "Berber" Sabers. The sheaths most importantly wood lined on one side only, very unique too both the sword and knife. Here are a couple of photos from Maxwells " Lords of the Atlas" in different printings. The swords worn are not prominent but they could well be "Berber Sabers", what do you think? I have no problem with moving the thread.
I'm only interested in sabers origins and the many attributions it has gained.

[Jim McDougall]

These are truly intriguing sabres, and quite honestly we have been discussing them for it seems about 14 yrs now off and on. I think I got one of these around 1994 and at this time these were as far as I could tell pretty scarce in the collecting community. The provenance to mine was insisted as Atlas/Rif/Berber, and there were no resources to substantiate nor refute this.

Tirri came out with his book about 10 years later, and the Spanish Morocco attribution seemed sufficiently substantiated, though by this time numbers of these were becoming seen among collectors and research was well underway.

My example had the 'MANU' near hilt at forte, and as seen later, appears to be remnant of the Manuel Dega stamp seen on others later. There is no doubt that this blade is a British M1796 light cavalry blade as I once set the two together...the tip of mine is reprofiled in the curious 'boat prow' design that Rick mentioned. Quite honestly I was drawn to the Indonesian attributions based on that and some temporal association to these kinds of points on kampilans, which have also seen comparison in these discussions.

The curious hilt form is somewhat similar to the Cuban 'espada' forms which are collectively termed 'guanabacoa' from various sources and entries by former writers here. Some of these hilts have indeed on occasion been classified as Algerian, though I have seen them far more often in Latin American context. Many of these types of swords seem to have come from Spanish American war souvenier groupings and the fact that they seem to have various types of representation throughout the sphere well known as the 'Spanish Main', and from around mid to turn of the century.

The fact that these seem to have occurred in certain 'Berber' context and particularly in the Spanish colonial context, which does indeed include the regions in Morocco, does suggest that these swords may well have diffused throughout in these periods.
It is hard to say exactly where they originated, but they do seem to have a certain similarity to the Moroccan sa'if (without guard obviously) and using in many cases the British M1796 cavalry blades. These were present in Spain in some volume after the Napoleonic period, and as surplus probably entered the trade networks. The names stamped in period character at the spine near hilt (one shown is BREFFIT'. and I have another ISAAC) suggests this as well.

The protrusion on the scabbard tip has been suggested to hold as the sword is drawn from the scabbard. While this seems uncharacteristic, I think it may be considered in the case of Central American climate and 'machete' type use, moisture may impede withdrawal in leather scabbard perhaps?

It would seem to me that these guardless sabres may have originated in Spanish colonial regions, and it would seem plausible in Maghreb noting the grip characteristics and perhaps the guardless feature aligns with the Kabyle flyssa somewhat. These would seem to have been dispersed to Latin American regions, where they would have served well in machete type functions.

[M ELEY]

I am convinced that the blade on the sword being discussed is from the same Spanish (I'm assuming) maker that forged the blade for my Brazilian espada cutlass. Mine was a weapon discussed in past threads and the grip on it is remarkably similar to these Berber sabers (used to have a clipped point Berber, so I've seen the similarity up close). As all have already pointed out, Spanish blades undoubtedly made their way into the Trade routes, especially with coastal areas such as Morocco. I suspect that the design of the hilt was originally African in origin (Saifs, nimchas, etc) and their patterns were copied in Spanish colonial regions-