Berber Cavalry Saber ??

kahnjar1 · 4th June 2013, 01:42 AM

Hi Steve,
Another interesting piece. My pick would be Algeria, based only on the hilt decoration. Many Khodmi knives from that area have similar decoration.
The blade could have originated almost anywhere. It could be an original European blade or a locally made copy.
Nice item IMHO.
Regards Stu

TVV · 6th June 2013, 12:11 AM

Nice sword archer.

We have indeed discussed these mysterious swords at great length in the past. To me their attribution is unclear, but I have two of them with Spanish mottos: one the standard "No me saques..." motto, the other one "Para Los Valientes Dominicanos", likely referring to a particular event in the history of what is now the Dominican Republic. I am yet to see an inscription on the blade of this type of sword that is NOT in Spanish.

Therefore, to me it appears that they must have been used somewhere within the Spanish Colonial Empire. Assuming a 19th century attribution to these swords, the Spanish Empire at the time was limited to the Caribbean, the Philippines and a few areas in North-Western Africa. Maybe add a significant portion of South America and all of Central America, if they date to the very early decades of the 19th century. Of all these options, I am leaning towards Central America and the Caribbean for two main reasons:
- Charles Buttin does not include these swords in his description of weapons from the Maghreb;
- the Dominican reference on the inscription on one of my swords.

A quick search should bring the old discussion threads up.

Regards,
Teodor

P.S. 29 inches seems a bit too short for a cavalry weapon. Mine are not very long either, and I doubt these were ever intended for mounted use. But in narrow confines (such as on a ship) or in a jungle setting they seem to be just about the right size for a sidearm.

ariel · 6th June 2013, 01:45 AM

Teodor,
I have a classical Moroccan Nimcha with the blade marked " Nueva Granada" ( presently, - Colombia/Venezuela).
Blades traveled, and surplus Spanish blades obviously found their way to the Spain-controlled N. Africa.

Rick · 6th June 2013, 03:06 AM

One thing these swords seem to share is a 'pinched tang' tapered to fit between the hilt slabs .
This would not seem to be the original configuration of these recycled blades .
The clipper-ship bow shaped point of many of these reconfigured swords seems quite un-Spanish also .

TVV · 6th June 2013, 07:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

Teodor,

Blades traveled, and surplus Spanish blades obviously found their way to the Spain-controlled N. Africa.

I completely agree with this, but while there is a variety of blades on nimchas: the Spanish one on yours, French blades, local blades, old Solingen backsword blades, etc., these allegedly Berber swords seem to be exclusively fitted with Spanish mottos, when inscriptions are present. It is a very different case from an odd trade blade or two.

I am afraid a conclusion will only be reached when we find a period photo of a warrior (or warriors) with this type of weapon. One is eventually bound to surface.

Regards,
Teodor

ariel · 7th June 2013, 03:14 AM

As I mentioned before, there is an oil painting in Versailles showing battle between the French and the Berbers. In in the right lower corner there is a Berber wielding exactly the same sword with clipped point. When I was there, I did not photograph it, dumbhead! Perhaps, one of our French colleagues may do us all a favor.

archer · 7th June 2013, 04:04 AM

After some cleaning clearer designs began to emerge. Perhaps patterns will be identifiable to an area the sheath was made. I haven't had a chance to begin looking yet. Rick I think the Pinched tang is a good start. The vague patterns in the rust, were connect the dot types, no help, the blade remains unmarked. after thought the leather work is a bit primitive, simple cuts and dye. Almost like scarification.
Regards, Steve

Richard G · 7th June 2013, 12:14 PM

There appear to be similarities between this sword and the knives in threads:-
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=16661
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=14832
i.e.
They all display the dot in a roundel type of decoration,
They all seem to have the same "pinched" tang construction,
The scabbards show similar tooling,
I would suggest the consensus is settling on a North or North West African origin.
Regards
Richard

archer · 6th June 2013, 02:57 AM

Hi, Here I was thinking another addition to Moroccan family with a rather rare sword when the sheath is complete. Now as you both have pointed out out It's worse than the mixed origins of the various Koummya styles. I'll read it all thorough, but, I need to peek at the ending has the forum found a conclusion?
This one just came in and needs a lot of oil to remove tiny raised rust spots. The right hand fuller may have very faint makers mark and maybe and armors acceptance stamp. we'll see what oil can do. Thanks, Steve

4th June 2013, 01:42 AM	#1
kahnjar1 Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND Posts: 2,786	Maybe Algeria??? Hi Steve, Another interesting piece. My pick would be Algeria, based only on the hilt decoration. Many Khodmi knives from that area have similar decoration. The blade could have originated almost anywhere. It could be an original European blade or a locally made copy. Nice item IMHO. Regards Stu

7th June 2013, 04:04 AM	#7
archer Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 373	After some cleaning clearer designs began to emerge. Perhaps patterns will be identifiable to an area the sheath was made. I haven't had a chance to begin looking yet. Rick I think the Pinched tang is a good start. The vague patterns in the rust, were connect the dot types, no help, the blade remains unmarked. after thought the leather work is a bit primitive, simple cuts and dye. Almost like scarification. Regards, Steve Attached Images Last edited by archer; 7th June 2013 at 07:27 AM. Reason: comment on leather work

6th June 2013, 02:57 AM	#9
archer Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 373	interesting links Hi, Here I was thinking another addition to Moroccan family with a rather rare sword when the sheath is complete. Now as you both have pointed out out It's worse than the mixed origins of the various Koummya styles. I'll read it all thorough, but, I need to peek at the ending has the forum found a conclusion? This one just came in and needs a lot of oil to remove tiny raised rust spots. The right hand fuller may have very faint makers mark and maybe and armors acceptance stamp. we'll see what oil can do. Thanks, Steve

6th June 2013, 12:11 AM	#2
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,660	Nice sword archer. We have indeed discussed these mysterious swords at great length in the past. To me their attribution is unclear, but I have two of them with Spanish mottos: one the standard "No me saques..." motto, the other one "Para Los Valientes Dominicanos", likely referring to a particular event in the history of what is now the Dominican Republic. I am yet to see an inscription on the blade of this type of sword that is NOT in Spanish. Therefore, to me it appears that they must have been used somewhere within the Spanish Colonial Empire. Assuming a 19th century attribution to these swords, the Spanish Empire at the time was limited to the Caribbean, the Philippines and a few areas in North-Western Africa. Maybe add a significant portion of South America and all of Central America, if they date to the very early decades of the 19th century. Of all these options, I am leaning towards Central America and the Caribbean for two main reasons: - Charles Buttin does not include these swords in his description of weapons from the Maghreb; - the Dominican reference on the inscription on one of my swords. A quick search should bring the old discussion threads up. Regards, Teodor P.S. 29 inches seems a bit too short for a cavalry weapon. Mine are not very long either, and I doubt these were ever intended for mounted use. But in narrow confines (such as on a ship) or in a jungle setting they seem to be just about the right size for a sidearm.

6th June 2013, 01:45 AM	#3
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Teodor, I have a classical Moroccan Nimcha with the blade marked " Nueva Granada" ( presently, - Colombia/Venezuela). Blades traveled, and surplus Spanish blades obviously found their way to the Spain-controlled N. Africa.

6th June 2013, 03:06 AM	#4
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,336	One thing these swords seem to share is a 'pinched tang' tapered to fit between the hilt slabs . This would not seem to be the original configuration of these recycled blades . The clipper-ship bow shaped point of many of these reconfigured swords seems quite un-Spanish also .

7th June 2013, 03:14 AM	#6
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	As I mentioned before, there is an oil painting in Versailles showing battle between the French and the Berbers. In in the right lower corner there is a Berber wielding exactly the same sword with clipped point. When I was there, I did not photograph it, dumbhead! Perhaps, one of our French colleagues may do us all a favor.

7th June 2013, 12:14 PM	#8
Richard G Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 409	There appear to be similarities between this sword and the knives in threads:- http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=16661 http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=14832 i.e. They all display the dot in a roundel type of decoration, They all seem to have the same "pinched" tang construction, The scabbards show similar tooling, I would suggest the consensus is settling on a North or North West African origin. Regards Richard