silver keris toli-toli ( comments pls)

[David]

Originally Posted by mykeris

After reading all views, I must say... it is very difficult to determine age of a toli-toli sheath due to lack of research and genuine samples- the new look could be old...and the old could be the other...... I must thank you people for taking the effort posting images of your topi-toli kerises to this forum.

You give up too easily here MyKeris. I am not yet convinced that it is not possible to determine old and "genuine" versions of toli-toli from the flood of new ones that are now all over the web. Right now on eBay i see just the toli-toli for sale as a separate item so that one can simply buy it as an upgrade attachment to your current ensemble. Somehow this seems wrong-headed to me, simply a way to embellish a keris to command more resale value from it. To my mind these kind of thoughtless upgrades are counter to the entire concept of ethnographic collection.
The explanation that Alan puts forth is one that i have indeed heard before and it does make some kind of logical sense. Of course, if that is the case it makes me wonder exactly when this protocol was in place in the palace since Eric's older example is a stylized version that would not allow practical application of the toli-toli (still pretty slick looking though, innit? ). I would also be really interested in knowing what societal level within the culture would wear these. If Alan is correct then it makes some sense that only people who were of a high enough status to actually have an audience with the ruler would have toli-toli on their keris.

[mykeris]

Thanks David, I will certainly follow future postings in this forum. You know why? ...Because you people talk facts and logic. TQ again.

[Jean]

Originally Posted by David

If Alan is correct then it makes some sense that only people who were of a high enough status to actually have an audience with the ruler would have toli-toli on their keris.

Hello David,
I fully agree with what you say but it seems to me that most if not all Bugis krisses from Sulawesi were fitted with a simple passio sumange / toli-toli (made from string) just for hanging the kris to the belt. I am showing a typical specimen which is made from knitted silver wire on a string base, unfortunately the bottom loop is missing. I saw several worn-out passio sumange attached to old Bugis krisses in the 90's but none of these fancy silver pieces with rosettes which now flood the market.
Best regards

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Jean

Hello David,
I fully agree with what you say but it seems to me that most if not all Bugis krisses from Sulawesi were fitted with a simple passio sumange / toli-toli (made from string) just for hanging the kris to the belt. I am showing a typical specimen which is made from knitted silver wire on a string base, unfortunately the bottom loop is missing. I saw several worn-out passio sumange attached to old Bugis krisses in the 90's but none of these fancy silver pieces with rosettes which now flood the market.
Best regards

Beautiful keris Jean!

[Jean]

Originally Posted by Sajen

Beautiful keris Jean!

Thanks Detlef. I bought this piece from a Bugis family established in Kalimantan, as you can see the blade is probably from Sumatra but I did not notice it at that time!
Regards

[Battara]

Great piece! So would you consider this an old toli-toli?

Also would this piece be considered nobility dress?

[Jean]

Hello Battara,
If you refer to my last piece, I would just consider the toli-toli as an used and standard model for everyday dress. The missing loop at the bottom uses the same materials as the top one and the binding string is more recent.
Regards

[Gustav]

A link to a thread with genuine old Passio Sumangge, and one of the most beautiful one, attached to a Keris of Sultan from Riau-Lingga:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...highlight=toli

Perhaps the earliest one with Passio Sumangge is the keris of August the Strong of Saxony, it's in Europe since 17. cent.