cultures moderation tips for keris lovers

rahman · 17th October 2005, 01:59 AM

Quote:

Berburu ke padang datar
Mendapat rusa belang kaki
Berguru kepalang ajar
Bagai bunga kembang tak jadi

Pak Kiyai

I'm afraid you just gave an excellent example of a pantun. A gurindam is a two-line rhyme. Pls see here: http://www.kampungnet.com.sg/modules...page&pageid=22

Emanuel · 17th October 2005, 03:53 AM

Greetings,

I have been reading this thread with great interest, as (for me) it answers numerous questions about the keris, specifically about the shape. What makes them all so different, what causes their uniqueness, what defines them? Mostly what is their purpose?

So far, it is my understanding that the dapur and pamor are representative of many qualities inherant to the keris bearer. History, identity, personality, dreams, desires, passions, all of these are forged within the fabric of the keris? To me, the words of all the members here knowledgeable of the Indonesian/Javanese/Malay culture indicate that keris can be read much as Japanese/Chinese calligraphy is read. That the very act or writing -in this case crafting the keris- can tell everything about the maker, the bearer, and perhaps even the reader. I gather that all these properties are also extended to the ukiran, warangka, and the pendok.
To Sirs. Purwacarita, Marto, Nechesh, Boedhi and Sigit, is the keris so wholly symbolic of your culture(s), that it sums up its phylosophies and beliefs, its poetry and history? Was (is) the keris meant to represent all of one man's past, present and future, and is that why it was(is) such a private-intimate affair?

Is my understanding the least bit correct?
Regards,
Manolo

Boedhi Adhitya · 17th October 2005, 04:52 AM

Hi, Ariel. Welcome aboard on 'keris forum'

Mysticism vs science is a very tought matter, and will never end in one final conclusion. Just like discussing the God's existence. It is philosophers' "play ground". I do respect your doubtful and skeptic opinion on mystcism. Today's world is fulfilled with materialism and positivism point of view which eventually gave advance to the science and human civilization. (some, will argue that it is nature destruction and certainly not an advancement).

Good philosopher would aware of limitation of science. It rely heavily on observation of phenomenon. An 'observation' would heavily rely on '5 senses'. Thus, blind men would observe the world quite different and make their own understanding on it. Red or blue, dark or light, have no meaning for them. And none of playboy's playmates is beauty/sexy. In fact, they may have their own understanding on 'sexy'

Thus, modern science would see all unobserved phenomenon as unexist, while it is not necessarily true. Radiation, will never exist in science until Marie Curie, accidentally, observed the phenomenon. Thank's to her, today, it is "exist", with the help of radiation detector/geiger counter. Without this "help", radiation will be "unexist" until someone get sick, and in the old days, people would gave offering. Other limitation to science is "the phenomenon should be repeatable". Unrepeatable phenomenon would be seen as "random/accidential".

Quoting Tanpoaran on "Sangkan Paraning Dumadi" (which unfortunately, I believe, only Javanese could read it

), "Belief needs no evidence. Once the evidence is observable, it should no longer called belief. It's a fact. If it is a fact, it does exist whether you believe it or not". For many of us, mysticism would only be a belief / faith. But for some, it could be a fact of life. I know someone who has control the fire using his heirloom spear while his neighbour's house on fire. Other is immersing his 'Kebo lajer' keris on a pail of water and bath his cows with it to cure it. It's all work, and no science could explain. For them, it is a fact, no matter what science said. IMHO, those who believe in God would easily accept a "miracle". For them, life itself is a miracle. Those who didn't, would see miracle as "random / accidential happens". For me personally, nothing so 'weird' about it, just like a 'miracleous' pimple just pop-up in the morning

Miracles happens every days. I would not "exagerrated" the keris' mysticism, and Ariel, someone, do believe it seriously (and try to rationalized it)

Dear Mr. Manolo, I believe you have a quite good understanding

. But please remember, this understanding only apply if the owner/bearer "match" it on purpose. Thus, while you may read the keris' purpose as it intended by the maker, you shouldn't 'expand/attributed' this understanding to the collector who own the keris just for the sake of beauty. But traditionally, match or not, you should treat the keris with respect 'as if' it is a match to the owner. To determine which one really 'match' the owner, you should pay close attention on how the owner treat his kerises, eg. which one he really prized of, proud of or love. Even so, this methods not always correct, especially today

Western approach would be to "control, dominate or overcome", while Eastern approach would always "seek in harmonies / balance". Understanding and giving some respect on this different approachs would "ease" our cultural understanding. Just my personal thought

Last but not least, happy ramadhan too Pak Kiai Carita and all of you who are fasting.

best regards.

Kiai Carita · 17th October 2005, 08:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rahman

Pak Kiyai

I'm afraid you just gave an excellent example of a pantun. A gurindam is a two-line rhyme. Pls see here: http://www.kampungnet.com.sg/modules...page&pageid=22

Assalaamu'alaikum'

Rahman thank you for the correction ... still the point is that gurindam is a Malay form and not a Jawa form. As for the hidden meanings in words mentioned by Purwacarita as gurindam, in Jawa are not called gurindam. Maybe Purwa means sanepan (sanepa) ....

Also while we are at it, am I mistaken to think that all forms of Malay poetry are forms of pantun?

Warm salaams to all.
KC

17th October 2005, 04:52 AM	#3
Boedhi Adhitya Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 103	Hi, Ariel. Welcome aboard on 'keris forum' Mysticism vs science is a very tought matter, and will never end in one final conclusion. Just like discussing the God's existence. It is philosophers' "play ground". I do respect your doubtful and skeptic opinion on mystcism. Today's world is fulfilled with materialism and positivism point of view which eventually gave advance to the science and human civilization. (some, will argue that it is nature destruction and certainly not an advancement). Good philosopher would aware of limitation of science. It rely heavily on observation of phenomenon. An 'observation' would heavily rely on '5 senses'. Thus, blind men would observe the world quite different and make their own understanding on it. Red or blue, dark or light, have no meaning for them. And none of playboy's playmates is beauty/sexy. In fact, they may have their own understanding on 'sexy' Thus, modern science would see all unobserved phenomenon as unexist, while it is not necessarily true. Radiation, will never exist in science until Marie Curie, accidentally, observed the phenomenon. Thank's to her, today, it is "exist", with the help of radiation detector/geiger counter. Without this "help", radiation will be "unexist" until someone get sick, and in the old days, people would gave offering. Other limitation to science is "the phenomenon should be repeatable". Unrepeatable phenomenon would be seen as "random/accidential". Quoting Tanpoaran on "Sangkan Paraning Dumadi" (which unfortunately, I believe, only Javanese could read it ), "Belief needs no evidence. Once the evidence is observable, it should no longer called belief. It's a fact. If it is a fact, it does exist whether you believe it or not". For many of us, mysticism would only be a belief / faith. But for some, it could be a fact of life. I know someone who has control the fire using his heirloom spear while his neighbour's house on fire. Other is immersing his 'Kebo lajer' keris on a pail of water and bath his cows with it to cure it. It's all work, and no science could explain. For them, it is a fact, no matter what science said. IMHO, those who believe in God would easily accept a "miracle". For them, life itself is a miracle. Those who didn't, would see miracle as "random / accidential happens". For me personally, nothing so 'weird' about it, just like a 'miracleous' pimple just pop-up in the morning Miracles happens every days. I would not "exagerrated" the keris' mysticism, and Ariel, someone, do believe it seriously (and try to rationalized it) Dear Mr. Manolo, I believe you have a quite good understanding . But please remember, this understanding only apply if the owner/bearer "match" it on purpose. Thus, while you may read the keris' purpose as it intended by the maker, you shouldn't 'expand/attributed' this understanding to the collector who own the keris just for the sake of beauty. But traditionally, match or not, you should treat the keris with respect 'as if' it is a match to the owner. To determine which one really 'match' the owner, you should pay close attention on how the owner treat his kerises, eg. which one he really prized of, proud of or love. Even so, this methods not always correct, especially today Western approach would be to "control, dominate or overcome", while Eastern approach would always "seek in harmonies / balance". Understanding and giving some respect on this different approachs would "ease" our cultural understanding. Just my personal thought Last but not least, happy ramadhan too Pak Kiai Carita and all of you who are fasting. best regards. Last edited by Boedhi Adhitya; 17th October 2005 at 06:01 AM. Reason: addition

17th October 2005, 03:53 AM	#2
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Greetings, I have been reading this thread with great interest, as (for me) it answers numerous questions about the keris, specifically about the shape. What makes them all so different, what causes their uniqueness, what defines them? Mostly what is their purpose? So far, it is my understanding that the dapur and pamor are representative of many qualities inherant to the keris bearer. History, identity, personality, dreams, desires, passions, all of these are forged within the fabric of the keris? To me, the words of all the members here knowledgeable of the Indonesian/Javanese/Malay culture indicate that keris can be read much as Japanese/Chinese calligraphy is read. That the very act or writing -in this case crafting the keris- can tell everything about the maker, the bearer, and perhaps even the reader. I gather that all these properties are also extended to the ukiran, warangka, and the pendok. To Sirs. Purwacarita, Marto, Nechesh, Boedhi and Sigit, is the keris so wholly symbolic of your culture(s), that it sums up its phylosophies and beliefs, its poetry and history? Was (is) the keris meant to represent all of one man's past, present and future, and is that why it was(is) such a private-intimate affair? Is my understanding the least bit correct? Regards, Manolo